Bnp

[bolo]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),

Very clear, but this is exactly the sentiment which is misguided, historically inaccurate and shows the European Union to be the utter farce it is. It has supported for many wrong reasons but none more so than the idea that it will prevent nationalism and hostility.

WW1 started because the Russians and French refused to accept what were reasonable demands on the part of the Austrians. Mlada Bosna were sponsored by the Serbian government. It was an act of terrorism when they shot the heir to the Austrian throne. Not too dissimilar to what happened in New York, except the American response was far more stern than the Austrian one. The Russians supported their neighbours out of some misplaced Slav brotherhood and the French supported the Russians out of economic reasons - they were tied together through bonds.

This is why it was generally felt in England that the Treaty of Versailles was harsh and so was the War Guilt Clause which was never intended to be in the treaty, except the Americans, who were originally concerned with a just peace, realised they couldn't get the money back they'd loaned Britain who'd passed much of it onto France because the French had none. The only way the Americans could get their money back was by getting it from Germany and this meant the War Guilt Clause had to be inserted into the treaty and this wasn't conceived until 1919.

The German delegates who walked up the steps into the conference were not prepared for the severity of the treaty. They were gobsmacked but had no option to sign. And, as said earlier, this is why the British government did not oppose the Germans taking the Rhineland back. To The British the Rhineland was German anyway and had been unjustly taken from them.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. But no one envisaged a war in 1914. It came as a bolt out of the blue and wasn't caused by nations wanting to kill one another but by terrorism and a ridiculous decision on the part of the Russians which at that point because of binding treaties and economic ties meant it escalated far beyond what it should have been.

I'm aware of the European history and the two World Wars. I just think it can't hurt to sit on a round table and talk to eachother in order to find out how other nations tick. Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign (the "arch-enemy" France, for example) worked because people and politicians didn't bother to actually talk to their neighbours and find out how their minds work.

That's what I mean with the European idea.

Other than that, I don't support the EU thing at all.

And I want my Deutschmarks back...

Hi Boris

I'm all for countries talking to each other and having good relations.

I'm afraid the Press tends to use misleading expressions, calling someone "anti-Europe" when the person is simply anti-EU.

Bingo. That is what I'm talking about. I love my neighbour but don't really want him to tell me how to do things at home. I'm not nationalist in the least, just fed up with all that EU nonsense.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

If you think Versailles was harsh, what about the German-imposed Brest-Litovsk?

Hello Robert,

Yeah, there is an argument to say what goes around comes around and the Germans inflicted a similarly harsh dictat on the French in 1870, but the Americans and the British were in a mood of reconciliation until it dawned on the Americans that they weren't gonna get their money back unless they bullied the Germans into accepting responsibility for the war; which really they weren't (no more than the French or the British).

It was a widely held belief in England that a ruined Germany in the centre of Europe was not good for England.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),



I'm aware of the European history and the two World Wars. I just think it can't hurt to sit on a round table and talk to eachother in order to find out how other nations tick. Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign (the "arch-enemy" France, for example) worked because people and politicians didn't bother to actually talk to their neighbours and find out how their minds work.

That's what I mean with the European idea.

Other than that, I don't support the EU thing at all.

And I want my Deutschmarks back...



Bingo. That is what I'm talking about. I love my neighbour but don't really want him to tell me how to do things at home. I'm not nationalist in the least, just fed up with all that EU nonsense.

Best wishes,

Boris

It is Paul, Boris.

The English and the French talking to one another We'd argue over the colour of the sky.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),

Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign

Have you been to that museum in Eastern Berlin, Boris, the one dedicated to German/Russian relations? Christ, that's an eye-opener. The propaganda posters from both sides have to be seen to be believed, many from well before the time of the Nazis. It seems they really hated one another.

[bolo]

It is Paul, Boris.

The English and the French talking to one another We'd argue over the colour of the sky.

Haha, well, yeah, guess it will be difficult, eh.

[533551 carnivorous amphibian-related jokes deleted here]

B

[Fleetwood Mac]

Haha, well, yeah, guess it will be difficult, eh.

[533551 carnivorous amphibian-related jokes deleted here]

B

What was it the French President said after the Olympics went to London and not Paris: "it's an absolute disgrace, only Finland has worse food than them, how can such a country hold the Olympics". Ahem.

The French never seem to get the rub of the green and are always left feeling bitter. They still resent us because our language spread far and wide and they feel they were rightful heirs to this throne. The beauty of it is that they wanted it so much and we're really not that bothered about it. You gotta laugh. They don't see the funny side though.

[bolo]

What was it the French President said after the Olympics went to London and not Paris: "it's an absolute disgrace, only Finland has worse food than them, how can such a country hold the Olympics". Ahem.

The French never seem to get the rub of the green and are always left feeling bitter. They still resent us because our language spread far and wide and they feel they were rightful heirs to this throne. The beauty of it is that they wanted it so much and we're really not that bothered about it. You gotta laugh. They don't see the funny side though.

There still is lots of chauvinism among inhabitants of le grande nation. You could say that this is annoying to some extend but it also makes them to what they are. I have a lot of respect for their cultural output and the fact that they were one of the few societies who opted for guillotineing their oppressors. (yes, I'm aware of the dark sides of this).

Other than that, I had my fair share of fun with travelling through France. Once I've been to a small village near Orly and ordered a glass of wine in what I thought would be flawless French, then they found out that I'm German and threw me out of the pub... ah well, how does one of my friends always say, they love our cars but rarely let us past their doorsteps...

Of course the quote of the French prez concerning English food is nonsense, I've been to the UK countless times and always enjoyed its people and food a lot. Lincolnshire sausages ftw!

[Sam Flynn]

They still resent us because our language spread far and wide and they feel they were rightful heirs to this throne.

1066 and all that. They have a point, n'est-ce pas?

[Fleetwood Mac]

1066 and all that. They have a point, n'est-ce pas?

Yeah, I suppose the English language is a hybrid including French and Old Norse with sometimes two words meaning the same thing, e.g. luck and chance, borne of two languages; one of them French.

And, for the benefit of Errata, there's Exclusionism for you. We'll rob anyone of anything and show absolutely no remorse nor shame.

[Errata]

Yeah, I suppose the English language is a hybrid including French and Old Norse with sometimes two words meaning the same thing, e.g. luck and chance, borne of two languages; one of them French.

And, for the benefit of Errata, there's Exclusionism for you. We'll rob anyone of anything and show absolutely no remorse nor shame.

Actually exclusionism is declaring that certain people aren't "real Englishmen" despite their English birth. Usually because they come from immigrant families or the non white parts of the Empire, or even because they have a different religion.

And I have no wish to start some nationalistic fight, certainly everybody does it. But you guys have been mocking yourselves for it for the past 200 years, all the while still doing it. Last time I was there you lot were still none too fond of Catholics, although Jews were alright. And my friend whose Indian family had been British citizens and provided the first Indian bodyguards to Queen Victoria since the 1880s was still called a foreigner. It is exclusion. It certainly looks to an outsider and to some insiders that the old image of the beef and pudding white man with whiskers was British, and the farther you got away from that, the less British one was considered. Regardless of how long such people had actually been British.

And it's a bit of an oversimplification, but think about this. To the British, there are about 20 American stereotypes. From ugly American tourists, to cowboys, bumbling presidents to southern belles to California stoners and everything in between. To Americans, all British men are either Churchill or Paul McCartney, and all women are either the Queen or a Spice Girl. Dress up as any British person not either a Beatle or a monarch, and nobody has any idea you are supposed to be British. In my crowd, you also have to option of being Syd Vicious or from Doctor Who, but even then that's about it. And of course stereotypes are crap. Of course not everyone fits a stereotype. But why do you only have two per gender to Americans, who actually like British things and people? It's because that's the image you project. Whether you mean to or not.

And that's why Americans are surprised when they hear someone not white speaking with a British accent. We aren't surprised by people of color from Australia, or White Africans. We are literally about as surprised by a black man from England as we are by a black man from Japan, and Japan completely owns it's exclusionism. While we intellectually know that you have to have black people and Asiatic people, we don't see it anywhere. You can name five famous black American actors. Most Americans probably can't name even one black British actor. You have the diversity, but it is nowhere in your national image. And there is no answer to why it's not part of your national image that doesn't circle right back to exclusionism. Whether your country meant to be exclusive or not. It is. You guys aren't white protestant enough anymore to sell yourselves as white protestant. But that's all anyone sees. And that's what I mean when I say you have a problem with exclusion. Aside from whats going on amongst yourselves, it's a problem in what you present to the world.

I do not give even a single crap about your relationship with the EU, whatever it may be. If you want to throw food at it and mock it, fine. It's your relationship with each other that bothered me. I don't care what else the BNP is selling. It's the part where it wants to "give Britain back" to white protestants ie: "The British" that's the problem. Sometimes it's like an 80 year old woman looking in the mirror and seeing herself as a teenager reflected back. You aren't that girl anymore. Haven't been in centuries.

[GUT]

G'day Errata

We aren't surprised by people of color from Australia,

But is that because the originals Aussies were as you term it "people of color"?

[Errata]

G'day Errata



But is that because the originals Aussies were as you term it "people of color"?

Probably, but there was also Xena and Hercules which were on tv right before the news, and they cast a bunch of Maori and black actors, so you get used to the idea pretty quickly. I mean, I'd love to say it's for some noble and educated reason, but really it's the crap media that you cruise past in search of content that is the litmus test of multiculturalism.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

I've no idea how many black or Asian actors appear in British films. I don't watch modern British cinema. I've no idea how many black and Asian actors appear in American films either. I don't watch modern American cinema. Incidentally, one reason I don't watch it is, to judge from the trailers they all consist of meaningless special effects, car chases and someone pointing a gun and saying "die motherf*cker."

[Fleetwood Mac]

Actually exclusionism is declaring that certain people aren't "real Englishmen" despite their English birth. Usually because they come from immigrant families or the non white parts of the Empire, or even because they have a different religion.

Errata,

Put bluntly, you do not have the first clue.

For example, in Germany it remains very difficult to be granted German citizenship if you are a Turk by birth. In England, however, you are in if you've lived here 5 years and the important point is that you are assumed to be Englishfied by culture and blood does not play a part in our way of thinking. Please note, culture, i.e. a way of doing things: not blood.

We are the most tolerant nation on this earth. For example, a British soldier had his head hacked off on our streets. Did we rush to blame Islam? Of course not, it was the actions of two lunatics. What did the US do when the New York atrocity happened? Replied in kind and then some.

In a nutshell, if you don't know then read and form a considered response.

It is staggering how this country which created so much in terms of decency, democracy, tolerance is belittled by people who do not have the first clue what they're talking about.

[Fleetwood Mac]

[/QUOTE]

And that's why Americans are surprised when they hear someone not white speaking with a British accent. We aren't surprised by people of color from Australia, or White Africans. We are literally about as surprised by a black man from England as we are by a black man from Japan, and Japan completely owns it's exclusionism.

[/QUOTE]

Christ, did it ever cross your mind that that says a lot more about Americans than it does about the English? Although I'm not convinced you're the spokeswoman for the United States.

Come over. See what it's like for your own eyes. Not what you've heard through idle tittle-tattle from people who wouldn't know where England is on a map.

And, the great irony of course is here you are talking of exclusionism and you believe something about England that has absolutely no basis in fact.

I would suggest you're joking but I have a feeling it's far from it.