Bnp

[Errata]

It's a myth.

First off, we're not nice.

Secondly, we have an entirely different history to continental Europe. We think differently. Now, when we sit down at the table with the rest of Europe we're pretty much always going to be in the minority opinion and in that situation it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner and we're on the menu.

There's absolutely no reason why we can't maintain good relations with our European neighbours while being independent which means we can decide when and where it is a good time to sit down at the table and negotiate.

The French Tourist Board once wrote: "The English are inherently conservative and insular", which to me should tell you a lot about France considering our history. Christ, Voltaire learned everything he knew from England.

I'm neither racist nor sexist nor homophobic nor anything, I mean as far as I'm concerned I wouldn't bat an eyelid if two muslim lesbians were in a 69 in the middle of the street at midday. I'd probably take a moment to have a look but I'd soon gather myself and continue onto work with a cup of tea and forget about it.

But, do I think our ideas are better than the French or German equivalent? Undoubtedly. History has proven this point. We don't kill our citizens because they are different.

It is not xenophobic or even patriotic to want England to retain its independence: it's sensible.

Polite then. Not nice. Although the people I have encountered in your now wee little empire have been lovely.

I don't think it's xenophobic to want independence. I think it's xenophobic to define who is British and who isn't, and to want to take action against those deemed to not be British. I think it's xenophobic to reject any person or idea based on it's origin and not it's merits. I'm talking about the BNP. Have been this whole time with a few minor forays into some British stereotypes. I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about the EU. I think the BNP has a dog in the race regarding the EU, but I'm willing to bet it's not the same dog as your dog.

To say that Britain has a history of exclusionism is both fair and unfair. I admit that. Certainly outsiders can see it that way, and I'm sure some insiders do as well. Accepting foreigners and foreign ways has historically not been the strongest suit in British history, somewhat sad given the breadth of the Empire. Especially compared to America. Which is why it's also unfair.

America has a similar problem, but we take in people and just hate them until we start hating someone else. But what it is to be an American has not been a static concept. Sometimes it has meant obedience, sometimes it has meant rebellion, sometimes it has meant expansionism, sometimes isolationism. Sometimes we are the world police, sometimes the kid everyone likes to bully. Essentially our national identity is schizophrenic, so with one glaring exception, anyone who talks about "real Americans" is either doing it in a commercial or getting blown off in a bar.

We say we are a melting pot, but it's not true. We are a stew. The beef does not mix with potatoes or the carrots, but in the end it all tastes like stew. So Vietnamese take out is just as American as pizza. But we have never demanded assimilation from our immigrants. Or maybe we have, but we never got it and never got used to it. Britain most assuredly has demanded it and has gotten used to it. There is a beautiful museum exhibit that was just in town of African cottons and Indian silks made up into these beautiful Edwardian gowns worn by women in British India and Africa. Now we Americans have a hard time keeping our explorers in pants when in other countries, much less making the natives wear our stuff. We never even succeeded in making our own Natives wear our stuff, much to the scandal of the teachers on reservations.

And I can't tell you where the difference comes from, since clearly we are hugely British as a nation. We are different. We should be. But I know what American strength and weaknesses are. I know when America is in trouble. And we are, though less so than we were 10 years ago. I don't know how to know when Britain is in trouble. It's why I asked. You have some weaknesses. Many of the same weaknesses we have. I'm not singling you out as some nation of racists. You guys hit a lot of major milestones before we did. What I am saying is that it is right for my knowledge of some of your weaknesses to cause some concern. I think most likely you guys handle it brilliantly. But I'm not British, I don't know for sure. Which is why I ask. As a citizen of the world who has heard some stuff but doesn't know a lot, I ask. I explain the reason for my concern.

But as for becoming a genocidal nation, I assure you that my assumption that it could happen is nothing personal. I assume it can happen anywhere. It has happened everywhere at some point. It's probably a lot less likely that a modern country is going together and kill all the Jews, but how many are killing political dissidents or terrorists? China killed 80 million of it's own people in 50 years in the name of politics. Greece just recently rounded up illegals and homosexuals and stored them in cages on docks in several cities. And as best I can tell, no one knows what happened next. There are no more stories about it. Not even that they were released or or arrested or even deported. Black out. That's not comforting. Are huge or isolated nations less susceptible? Maybe? It may end up making us more susceptible in this new era of hyper security. Do I fervently hope that our differences from Germany and our involvement in the aftermath of genocide would mean we wouldn't let it happen? Hell yes. Do I count on it as certain? No. 15 years ago I could not imagine allowing some rent a cop to invasively search me for any reason. I protested against frisking procedures by police in high school. A few months ago, I let some guy search me because I didn't want to miss my plane. I've changed. My country has changed. I never thought we would be this. So I don't rule out anything anymore.

[Robert]

Errata, you were searched by a policeman? That's not on. Only women should search women.

Yes I guess any country can go off the rails, but some are more likely to than others. I was going to say that the Germans are more obedient to their governments than we are, but I think that actually we are more docile and herd-like than the Germans. Our governments feed us sh*t and we swallow. We wouldn't have done a Germany in the 1930s because we would have been too frightened of disobeying the Weimar Republic to vote for Nazis and Communists. In fact, the British are too lazy to commit genocide.

I wouldn't worry about the Greek illegals. I doubt if they were shot. The Greeks can't afford the bullets.

I believe that the real individualists are you lot. I know the British have a reputation for eccentricity, but a lot of that is down to the aristos - people who make the rules and then decide which rules to keep. They were the public face of Britain throughout the empire, and hence the worldwide stereotype of the upper class twit. I'm not complaining, since I like stereotypes.

[Errata]

Errata, you were searched by a policeman? That's not on. Only women should search women.

Yes I guess any country can go off the rails, but some are more likely to than others. I was going to say that the Germans are more obedient to their governments than we are, but I think that actually we are more docile and herd-like than the Germans. Our governments feed us sh*t and we swallow. We wouldn't have done a Germany in the 1930s because we would have been too frightened of disobeying the Weimar Republic to vote for Nazis and Communists. In fact, the British are too lazy to commit genocide.

I wouldn't worry about the Greek illegals. I doubt if they were shot. The Greeks can't afford the bullets.

I believe that the real individualists are you lot. I know the British have a reputation for eccentricity, but a lot of that is down to the aristos - people who make the rules and then decide which rules to keep. They were the public face of Britain throughout the empire, and hence the worldwide stereotype of the upper class twit. I'm not complaining, since I like stereotypes.

I was searched by a female at airport security when I forgot to take a ring off. She was not a cop. Technically she might have been Homeland security, but she did not have the power to arrest me. She simply had the power to turn me over to the cops or deny me the ability to pass through security. And I went along with it because I didn't want to miss my flight, and I felt responsible because I forgot to take off my ring. Which upon reflection is madness. When I was 19 I would have told her to suck it then walked out and gone home rather than submit to a search by someone other than an officer with a warrant. I'd like to think the times are changing, but I'm pretty sure it's me. And I LIKED 19 year old me.

Well, I worry that Greek illegals are not being dealt with through the justice system, which has laws and procedures for this very reason. Rounding up homosexual citizens on the other hand falls in no gray area ever. It's not even within spitting distance of law and order. They did that at best to terrorize these people, and at worst to kill them. And no one seems to know where they went.

And you guys have committed genocide. Just not in your own country. At least not in a very very log time.

We may be individualists, but when you guys do eccentric we should be so lucky to come close really. All we can do is stand back and applaud. I have an elderly Scottish neighbor who throws axes at kids trespassing on his property while shouting things like "Scots Wha Hae!" "Forget Not!" and my favorite "For The Bruce!". He's my hero.

[Robert]

I guess you must have been using the American meaning of "guy" which means man or woman. Very confusing!

Agree with you about the Greek gays, but I doubt if anything's happened to them. Greece is a fairly open country and this would have been sniffed out, plus they wouldn't want to endanger their bailouts.

I was puzzled by the "British genocide" and did a Google search where I found some allegations. However I won't get into a long argument about it.

Actually I shouldn't have used the word "genocide" in the first place because if you kill, say, a million people then you've killed a million PEOPLE. From a strictly moral point of view their race doesn't come into it. Of course, those on the receiving end will feel specially aggrieved for nationalist reasons. That's how it should be.

[Abby Normal]

Errata,

Stop at that point and consider the history of your own country and the history of Germany.

There are a multitude of reasons why it happened on continental Europe and why it would never happen in England, the United States, Australia or Canada.

One is the English Bill of Rights, and go back farther to forerunning ideas of liberty. The other, and the main factor, is geography.

Germany is a fascinating country. Read about it. Read about 'the land in the middle', and how it bore people inherently inward looking, and read about England and the United States: inherently outward looking, commercial nations with a large middle class.

You may find that the middle class in Germany didn't have the avenues that we did in England and it led to what they called: "High Kultur". It is absolutely no coincidence that Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger and associates were Germans or near Germanic neighbours. It is a peculiar country with a peculiar history.

That is not to say that I believe Germans are somehow predisposed to genocide - that's not the case at all. But, they do have a certain geography which ultimately led to certain ideas.

I just want to know why Germany has produced so many great physicists?

[Abby Normal]

I was searched by a female at airport security when I forgot to take a ring off. She was not a cop. Technically she might have been Homeland security, but she did not have the power to arrest me. She simply had the power to turn me over to the cops or deny me the ability to pass through security. And I went along with it because I didn't want to miss my flight, and I felt responsible because I forgot to take off my ring. Which upon reflection is madness. When I was 19 I would have told her to suck it then walked out and gone home rather than submit to a search by someone other than an officer with a warrant. I'd like to think the times are changing, but I'm pretty sure it's me. And I LIKED 19 year old me.

Well, I worry that Greek illegals are not being dealt with through the justice system, which has laws and procedures for this very reason. Rounding up homosexual citizens on the other hand falls in no gray area ever. It's not even within spitting distance of law and order. They did that at best to terrorize these people, and at worst to kill them. And no one seems to know where they went.

And you guys have committed genocide. Just not in your own country. At least not in a very very log time.

We may be individualists, but when you guys do eccentric we should be so lucky to come close really. All we can do is stand back and applaud. I have an elderly Scottish neighbor who throws axes at kids trespassing on his property while shouting things like "Scots Wha Hae!" "Forget Not!" and my favorite "For The Bruce!". He's my hero.

Hi Errata
with all due respect. after 9-11 and all the killings in the schools you are complaining about being searched?
and applauding someone who throws axes at kids?

your kidding right?

[Errata]

Hi Errata
with all due respect. after 9-11 and all the killings in the schools you are complaining about being searched?
and applauding someone who throws axes at kids?

your kidding right?

What can I say? First of all, Hammy used to be in the circus. he could take a grape off my head without slicing a hair with one of his axes, and he never gets near the kids. He just scares the hell out him. Shouting war cries. The guy is just so damn weird and cool I want to be him. Not because he throws axes at kids. Though these kids are little shits. We aren't talking about just passing through kids. We are talking about "he's different let's burn down the barn and all his horses" kids. It's a boys will be boys kinda place here. And Hammy is awesome.

And I do object to being searched. I object to the fact that I live in a world where searching people is a fact of life. I resent that people find it necessary, I resent that I occasionally agree with them. This isn't the world I wanted. It's not the world I thought it would be. And I resent that. I should resent that. We should all resent that. I don't believe in surrendering rights for security. But I do it. It is a very real divide between my ideals and my reality, and 13 years on I still haven't sorted it out in my head. I can't help feeling like I'm becoming something I hate. It's not that I don't get it, I just don't want it to be this way. Not that I have a solution, but this is a long term struggle for me.

[Sam Flynn]

I think that actually we are more docile and herd-like than the Germans. Our governments feed us sh*t and we swallow. We wouldn't have done a Germany in the 1930s because we would have been too frightened of disobeying the Weimar Republic to vote for Nazis and Communists. In fact, the British are too lazy to commit genocide.

Spot-on, Robert - albeit I'd have inclined to use the word "apathetic" rather than "lazy".

[Sam Flynn]

I just want to know why Germany has produced so many great physicists?

And chemists, astronomers, poets, playwrights, novelists, philosophers, composers, artists... with veritable giants in each field. Why should this be? I've no idea either

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Dave, you only got your palace from those bloody foreign Romans.

FM, I think Nietzsche viewed anti-semitism as a symptom of weakness and resentment - a sort of "well at least I can feel superior to them " attitude. Nietzsche advocated power but it wasn't the power of the State or the jackboot. It was basically the power of self-control. But of course in order to have self-control, one needs something within oneself to control. Hence his strictures against Christianity, which wants pureness of heart : "the spiritualisation of sensuality is called love. It is a great triumph over Christianity." It's a sort of dualism, with the Dionysian controlled by the Apollinian but driving it ever higher. "Of all evil I deem you capable. Therefore I want the good from you. Verily I have often laughed at the weaklings who think themselves virtuous because they have no claws."

He wasn't opposed to pity as such, but disapproved of it when it actually harmed the people to whom it was directed, or constantly distracted the pity-giver from pursuing his own life.

I could be wrong but my reading of Nietzsche is that he had no time for anyone who defined themselves in relation to some other group, borrowing from Hegel's Master/Slave dialectic. That doesn't make him pro-Jewish.

I think he was vehemently opposed to the notion of 'pity' because of the inherent nature of pity (compassion being an altogether different concept);

Oh, and I disagree with your assessment of English political acumen. We're very astute in that regard. We know it's a load of bollocks in the sense that politicians are limited in what they can achieve, and we've known this in this country for centuries. We're a pragmatic, sceptical, realist people who instinctively understand that the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of a well meaning body of people.

[Robert]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

[Limehouse]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

I think that's a very fair, honest and accurate assessment Robert.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

Hello Robert,

There's not a great deal in the above that I agree with.

Firstly, there are certainly some pertinent guiding principles within English society. We don't have a written constitution, granted, but that in itself tells a story: dogma is not something which is appreciated in this country (a principle in itself).

The absolute guiding principle in England, at least traditionally, and unfortunately the left have done their level best to usurp this principle; is that when push comes to shove we are animals and animals can be very dangerous. As such, it is wise for people and society to understand their limitations, borne out in the idea that power corrupts and it is foolhardy to trust a body of well meaning people.

Consequently, we're pretty much an easy come easy go people who can't get too excited about what happens in the public domain but will protect our back garden at all costs. In France say, the Government can have rail routes that run through hitherto private areas knocked up in a crack. In this country, not a chance. There are countless petitions with the message being: "not in my back garden".

That is very wise in my opinion and when most people in this country say: "I'm not political", what they mean is I don't have a lot of time for politicians and grand ideals but when my independence is threatened that's a different matter.

In terms, of flags and war: every people in the world is mobilised through pride and fear. Just look at the Sandinistas who were a rag tag outfit who were turned into the Mongol Hordes by a committed US government, and before you know it they have the population on side. Oldest trick in the book and hardly a specifically English trait. In fact, if you look down the centuries we have not fought the amount of protracted wars that say the French or the Germans and most Europeans have; we tended to go in for short spats involving commerce (or theft depending upon point of view). It seems then that we aren't so easily convinced.

Also, judging by UKIP's recent results it seems that independence is something that remains very much alive and well in this country.

Sucking up to the Nazis? Couldn't be more wrong. WW1 made everyone think twice and Britain simply did not have the financial clout to fight a war in the 1930's that she did in 1914. Furthermore, Hitler's demands up to 1938 did not seem unreasonable as he annexed parts of the map that were previously parts of Germany and it was general consensus in England that the Treaty of Versailles was not reasonable (on all sides of the political spectrum including Keynes). Austria was the tipping point because German demands became unreasonable.

It wasn't our fight, anyway. England had always done best from keeping out of European quarrels but I suppose it could be argued that Hitler threatened the balance of power and so it became our quarrel. Personally, I think we should have kept out of it: thinking we're the world's police led to near ruin 1914-1918.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You Brits seem like nice people. I like you as a rule. But you do have a streak of exclusionism a mile wide, and that's a problem. I have noticed that the idea of social evolution in your country is considered bad. Evolution isn't necessarily better than the old way, just what is needed to survive. But historically, the most extreme groups are the ones who want to turn back the clock. Even if they identify themselves as moderate. For example many countries stay in the EU and retain a very personal identity. France for instance. If Britain cannot be in the EU and still be British, that's not necessarily a sign that the EU is contradictory to British identity. It may be that the British identity is no longer strong enough to withstand outside influence. And the solution to that isn't isolationism. It's forging a new identity.

Hello Errata,

Without being rude, I would suggest you have a read about England's history.

A streak of exclusionism? Which country do you think began to practice religious and civil tolerance and parliamentary democracy in the 1700s while our neighbours over the water had absolute monarchist societies and civil and religious strife which far outweighed what was happening in England?

Look at the British Empire, because there was certainly a tendency toward thinking that the English had a duty to pass on our expertise to the rest of the world. If anything we have been overbearing throughout history rather than isolationist.

And, the EU identity is inherently different to the English identity. We have an entirely different history and culture and way of thinking, not to mention an economy that is structured differently and simply does not fit neatly into one currency and one set of interest rates etc.

Using your logic, Errata, why don't we just have one world government and all become the same. We'll call it the United States of the World and what we'll do is we'll force the United States to contribute the most as the world's largest economy and we'll give your money to Zimbabwe and Afghanistan and Turkey. That's how the EU works. Sucking the life out of the enterprise of the people who live in the more successful societies.

Why on earth would I want German or French or Italian officials governing my country? Firstly, I don't agree with much of what they have to say and secondly the farther away you are from government the less chance you have to influence it.

It's not exclusionist to want out of the EU. I have no problem with any of them over water, God knows I've visited enough places over there and enjoyed their company; put simply, I don't want to be governed by them, which doesn't mean I have a streak of Exclusionism. Would you want to be governed by them?

[Robert]

Hi FM

Well, my posts weren't meant as an attack on the British (there's nothing wrong with them that a deferencectomy wouldn't cure) so much as an attack on their so-called leaders.

Yes, we are jealous of our little patch of land, with its house and its garden. But look at the enclosure acts : when the lord wants your little patch of land, he will have your little patch of land, and off you go to the mill. Sometimes whole villages were moved or destroyed so that the lord's park would have a pleasing prospect.

Family life is another tradition. We've always been a family-oriented nation. Pity then that when they opened the workhouses, they separated the sexes. Might breed, you see. Arthur Quiller-Couch wrote a story in which an aged man and his aged wife grew too old to manage by themselves, whereupon they reluctantly entered the workhouse, and where they were separated - might breed, you see.

Patriotism? We've always been patriotic and we see things through to the bitter end. Our reward? To be told we're racists, fascists and xenophobes. It's "we don't need you now. Sod off."

I think the troops who fought the Peninsular War didn't even get a campaign medal.

Yea, UKIP has been doing well. Maybe the British have woken up to the meaning of the EU. 40 years too late, but better late than never.

Re Germany, ah, well you see what happened was that our leaders, in their transcendental wisdom, chose not to declare war on Germany when Germany marched into the Rhineland and violated the treaty. Oh no, no, no, they were far too clever for that. What they did instead, was to wait while Hitler stole Austria, the Sudetenland, the rest of what is now the Czech Republic, installed puppet regimes in various other countries, and armed himself to the hilt. The trap was sprung : Hitler had been lulled into a false sense of security. Quick as a flash, our gifted and talented leaders declared war on Germany over a nation that we couldn't help and couldn't even reach. It was a masterstroke, and sure enough, six years later, the strategy was vindicated.

No other country in the world is lucky enough to have leaders like this.