Election

[Tab]

Which I suspect is the core of confusion.

Only your confusion it would seem. Every discussion I have had, every post I have replied to has been about legal immigration.

Why talk about them who no-one has a problem with?

This very thread you are replying in would beg to differ.

If anyone is complaining about immigration, by default most people might think the conversation is about illegal immigration.

Except when it is made clear that the complaining is about legal immigration. Exhibit A - this thread. However, I would also suggest that people regularly conflate the two, in some cases deliberately. Shouting stats like "millions of immigrants every year, they need to be stopped!" I would also suggest that this conflation is stoked deliberately by the certain sections of media, with misleading headlines and word salad articles intended to send people in to a frenzy after a quick 5 second glance.

The debate often centers around whether they are legitimate Asylum seekers, or opportunistic migrants, looking for a handout.

Agree.

We know a small percentage are legitimate Asylum seekers.

If we go by what the UK Government classes as legitimate refugees, it's actually around 60%.

Many of them come by plane and enter through airport customs & immigration. The controversy is over those who come by boat, from SAFE countries like; France, Germany, Italy, Greece, etc., Clearly they are not asylum seekers, they can seek asylum in any one of those European countries.

It's not always possible to get a direct flight from the country they are escaping, for various reasons, even as ubiquitous as Ryan Air and EasyJet are. Also, the majority do stay in those countries once they reach them. Don't get me wrong, there are bad apples, and it is a problem. But these are human beings we are dealing with. 2022 saw more than 8000 children cross the channel. Many alone. Many who have escaped absolutely appalling conditions it's hard to fathom, only to be put in refugee camps where the conditions are, if not worse, more often than not comparable to where they originally escaped from. It's no wonder some of them want try to get to a country that will treat them with a shred of decency and actually try and help them if they truly need it. However, it is not a perfect system I agree.

I take issue with the rhetoric around the issue and the way the arguments are framed. For the vast majority of people, the issue is simply the numbers they read, and the stories they hear in the news and social media about the scary immigrants. Doesn't hurt to inject a little humanity in to the discussion amongst all the bluster.

All the best,
Tab

[Tab]

Where are the women & children?
The vast majority of those who come by boat are 'young adult males', granted a few have been female & children, but those are not the concern. Its the thousands of young adult males that are the problem.
They hang around the offices in town waiting for their handouts, while British pensioners are afraid to go collect their pensions. These gangs of foreigners, standing around in groups are staring at them, they feel like they are being sized up for a mugging.
None of them stand in lines, its not their culture, they just push others aside to get in, and waste time shouting things like "wheres my money" or words to that effect. They say they get £35 per day, some say a bit more, others a bit less.

Why are they getting housed in hotels the ordinary people can't afford, while British homeless are sleeping on the streets?

Just a quick one. I was once again replying to a post about legal immigration, not those that come by boat.

Not long ago some Labor party officers attended a meeting in Sweden, also in attendance were some Arabian donors to the Labor party.

I'd be interested is seeing a source for this, I wasn't able to find one myself.

All the best,
Tab

[The Rookie Detective]

A few years back, I experienced something that has stayed with me.
I had just returned to my car which was parked in a hospital carpark; having just visited a relative who was in a ward.
I got into my car and rather than drive straight off, I decided to check my phone before intending to drive. I sat for a few minutes in my car in the dark checking my phone, when a young couple in their 20's/30's approached the car parked directly in front of mine (our cars were facing each other)
I could tell by the woman's hijab that she was a Muslim.

Initially I thought they were getting into their car, but rather than get in, they each took something out of their car...namely a pair of prayer mats

Before I could initiate driving off (my car engine was off) the couple took their prayer mats and hurriedly placed them on the ground in the relatively small space between both our cars, just slightly off to my drivers side.

They both began to prayer on their prayer mats, both facing away from me.

I could see them both from my position.

In that moment I thought....ah, I need to go and leave them to pray, but then realised that It would be physically impossible to navigate reversing out of my parking space without having to move forward again at an angle due to minimal space behind me.

In other words, despite having started praying, they were going to have to move so that I could go.

I then felt slightly awkward because I wanted to go, not just because I was finished with my phone, but also because I felt I was intruding by being able to observe them praying.

I then considered starting my car so that they could both be aware of my presence; a bit like when you cough to get someone's attention.
But I then felt a sense of panic, because I was concerned that by starting my car, it may offend them because it would no doubt interrupt their praying.

I then took a beat and thought about just doing nothing and simply waiting for them to finish so I could go after they had finished.

I had no idea how long they were going to be.

Then, oddly enough, over the next few minutes I must admit that I watched them intently; memerized by their efforts and involvement in their own prayers.
Although I did feel I was intruding somewhat, I also felt compelled to remain as an observer and thus refrain from doing anything to disturb them.

Within a few minutes they had finished and they both stood up in unison and had a brief moment together as they replaced their prayer mats back into their car.

I then took the opportunity to start my car, and at that moment they both looked over to me.
As I maneuvered out of my space, I felt compelled to explain to them why I had clearly been sitting there in my car watching them as they prayed. I wound down the window and engaged with the man.

I was worried that he would be offended.


But to my surprise, he seemed very apologetic, because he appeared to have realised that he had stopped me from being able to physically drive off.
I then told him that I hoped I hadn't disturbed him.
He seemed very grateful and thanked me and I naturally reciprocated by wishing him a good evening. It was all very amicable.

There was an overding feeling and sense of mutual respect.

I drove off feeling like I had done the right thing, and what had it cost me?

I got home 5 minutes later than planned... and that was it.

No issue whatsoever.


At NO point whatsoever in the deepest depths of my mind did it ever occur to me to feel aggrieved that there were "2 Muslims who had the audacity to whip out their prayer mats and block my car in."

Neither of the couple saw me in my car

I was sitting in the dark on my phone

They had just come out of the hospital, perhaps having seen a poorly relative and perhaps they had hurriedly left to go and pray; as a means of necessity and commitment to their God.

The fact this occurred in London, also makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Who was I to deliberately interrupt their personal prayers by starting my car before they had finished?

Now of course if I was in a desperate hurry myself, then I would have started my car and very politely told them that I needed to go urgently.
Based on their reaction to me, I am certain that they would have kindly waited for me to drive away before commencing their prayers.

But because their praying had no negative impact on me whatsoever, I chose to let them pray and simply wait for them to finish.

Ultimately I guess it comes down to normal human decency, respect, compassion and understanding.

I left the car park with a sense of fulfillment and pride, because I had observed something new and rather beautiful.
I felt humbled to have witnessed what I saw.


I also felt enlightened and a belief that I had learned something new.


So when you're voting, consider the actual human side to all of this rhetoric propaganda that is peddled by these politicians


You may just open your mind and experience something wonderful and new; free from prejudice and segregating populist conformity.


Choose to be a sheep if you like

Choose to be a wolf if you dare


Or simply choose to be a kind humble shepherd who shows care and compassion for all.



RD

[The Baron]

A few years back, I experienced something that has stayed with me.
I had just returned to my car which was parked in a hospital carpark; having just visited a relative who was in a ward.
I got into my car and rather than drive straight off, I decided to check my phone before intending to drive. I sat for a few minutes in my car in the dark checking my phone, when a young couple in their 20's/30's approached the car parked directly in front of mine (our cars were facing each other)
I could tell by the woman's hijab that she was a Muslim.

Initially I thought they were getting into their car, but rather than get in, they each took something out of their car...namely a pair of prayer mats

Before I could initiate driving off (my car engine was off) the couple took their prayer mats and hurriedly placed them on the ground in the relatively small space between both our cars, just slightly off to my drivers side.

They both began to prayer on their prayer mats, both facing away from me.

I could see them both from my position.

In that moment I thought....ah, I need to go and leave them to pray, but then realised that It would be physically impossible to navigate reversing out of my parking space without having to move forward again at an angle due to minimal space behind me.

In other words, despite having started praying, they were going to have to move so that I could go.

I then felt slightly awkward because I wanted to go, not just because I was finished with my phone, but also because I felt I was intruding by being able to observe them praying.

I then considered starting my car so that they could both be aware of my presence; a bit like when you cough to get someone's attention.
But I then felt a sense of panic, because I was concerned that by starting my car, it may offend them because it would no doubt interrupt their praying.

I then took a beat and thought about just doing nothing and simply waiting for them to finish so I could go after they had finished.

I had no idea how long they were going to be.

Then, oddly enough, over the next few minutes I must admit that I watched them intently; memerized by their efforts and involvement in their own prayers.
Although I did feel I was intruding somewhat, I also felt compelled to remain as an observer and thus refrain from doing anything to disturb them.

Within a few minutes they had finished and they both stood up in unison and had a brief moment together as they replaced their prayer mats back into their car.

I then took the opportunity to start my car, and at that moment they both looked over to me.
As I maneuvered out of my space, I felt compelled to explain to them why I had clearly been sitting there in my car watching them as they prayed. I wound down the window and engaged with the man.

I was worried that he would be offended.


But to my surprise, he seemed very apologetic, because he appeared to have realised that he had stopped me from being able to physically drive off.
I then told him that I hoped I hadn't disturbed him.
He seemed very grateful and thanked me and I naturally reciprocated by wishing him a good evening. It was all very amicable.

There was an overding feeling and sense of mutual respect.

I drove off feeling like I had done the right thing, and what had it cost me?

I got home 5 minutes later than planned... and that was it.

No issue whatsoever.


At NO point whatsoever in the deepest depths of my mind did it ever occur to me to feel aggrieved that there were "2 Muslims who had the audacity to whip out their prayer mats and block my car in."

Neither of the couple saw me in my car

I was sitting in the dark on my phone

They had just come out of the hospital, perhaps having seen a poorly relative and perhaps they had hurriedly left to go and pray; as a means of necessity and commitment to their God.

The fact this occurred in London, also makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Who was I to deliberately interrupt their personal prayers by starting my car before they had finished?

Now of course if I was in a desperate hurry myself, then I would have started my car and very politely told them that I needed to go urgently.
Based on their reaction to me, I am certain that they would have kindly waited for me to drive away before commencing their prayers.

But because their praying had no negative impact on me whatsoever, I chose to let them pray and simply wait for them to finish.

Ultimately I guess it comes down to normal human decency, respect, compassion and understanding.

I left the car park with a sense of fulfillment and pride, because I had observed something new and rather beautiful.
I felt humbled to have witnessed what I saw.


I also felt enlightened and a belief that I had learned something new.


So when you're voting, consider the actual human side to all of this rhetoric propaganda that is peddled by these politicians


You may just open your mind and experience something wonderful and new; free from prejudice and segregating populist conformity.


Choose to be a sheep if you like

Choose to be a wolf if you dare


Or simply choose to be a kind humble shepherd who shows care and compassion for all.



RD

Well said, and beautiful post.


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

I take issue with the rhetoric around the issue and the way the arguments are framed. For the vast majority of people, the issue is simply the numbers they read, and the stories they hear in the news and social media about the scary immigrants. Doesn't hurt to inject a little humanity in to the discussion amongst all the bluster.

All the best,
Tab

This is what I was talking about earlier Tab. You’re assuming that people who have an opinion that differs from your own are simply easily influenced sheep and that none of them are talking about the experiences that they, their family and their friends have experienced and still are experiencing. Of course I accept that we are all influenced in some way by the media and both left and right of the spectrum have their own agendas and tend to stoke the fires. As I’ve said before…you know x amount of people, I know x amount of people. I don’t know a single person who sees things the way that you do Tab. Not one. Now, of course you might say, with absolute truth, that no one that you know thinks the way that I do but what we undoubtedly have is a significant number (and no, I can’t put a figure on it of course) but a significant number of people who are deeply unhappy with the way society is and the way that it appears to be moving. Not only about immigration but other issues too.

We clearly have different outlooks. We both undoubtedly want a better society but our differences might not just be how we should get there but on how that society should look. There is one big difference though Tab that you can take heart in. Your hoped for society might happen (or something close to it) mine never will. My England is dead and buried for good. I can accept it (because it’s a fact) but I don’t have to be happy about it.

[String]

Prosecutions in 2022 in England and Wales:

males
77% white
11% Black
7% Asian

females
88% white
6% Black
3% Asian

Statistics eh.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A few years back, I experienced something that has stayed with me.
I had just returned to my car which was parked in a hospital carpark; having just visited a relative who was in a ward.
I got into my car and rather than drive straight off, I decided to check my phone before intending to drive. I sat for a few minutes in my car in the dark checking my phone, when a young couple in their 20's/30's approached the car parked directly in front of mine (our cars were facing each other)
I could tell by the woman's hijab that she was a Muslim.

Initially I thought they were getting into their car, but rather than get in, they each took something out of their car...namely a pair of prayer mats

Before I could initiate driving off (my car engine was off) the couple took their prayer mats and hurriedly placed them on the ground in the relatively small space between both our cars, just slightly off to my drivers side.

They both began to prayer on their prayer mats, both facing away from me.

I could see them both from my position.

In that moment I thought....ah, I need to go and leave them to pray, but then realised that It would be physically impossible to navigate reversing out of my parking space without having to move forward again at an angle due to minimal space behind me.

In other words, despite having started praying, they were going to have to move so that I could go.

I then felt slightly awkward because I wanted to go, not just because I was finished with my phone, but also because I felt I was intruding by being able to observe them praying.

I then considered starting my car so that they could both be aware of my presence; a bit like when you cough to get someone's attention.
But I then felt a sense of panic, because I was concerned that by starting my car, it may offend them because it would no doubt interrupt their praying.

I then took a beat and thought about just doing nothing and simply waiting for them to finish so I could go after they had finished.

I had no idea how long they were going to be.

Then, oddly enough, over the next few minutes I must admit that I watched them intently; memerized by their efforts and involvement in their own prayers.
Although I did feel I was intruding somewhat, I also felt compelled to remain as an observer and thus refrain from doing anything to disturb them.

Within a few minutes they had finished and they both stood up in unison and had a brief moment together as they replaced their prayer mats back into their car.

I then took the opportunity to start my car, and at that moment they both looked over to me.
As I maneuvered out of my space, I felt compelled to explain to them why I had clearly been sitting there in my car watching them as they prayed. I wound down the window and engaged with the man.

I was worried that he would be offended.


But to my surprise, he seemed very apologetic, because he appeared to have realised that he had stopped me from being able to physically drive off.
I then told him that I hoped I hadn't disturbed him.
He seemed very grateful and thanked me and I naturally reciprocated by wishing him a good evening. It was all very amicable.

There was an overding feeling and sense of mutual respect.

I drove off feeling like I had done the right thing, and what had it cost me?

I got home 5 minutes later than planned... and that was it.

No issue whatsoever.


At NO point whatsoever in the deepest depths of my mind did it ever occur to me to feel aggrieved that there were "2 Muslims who had the audacity to whip out their prayer mats and block my car in."

Neither of the couple saw me in my car

I was sitting in the dark on my phone

They had just come out of the hospital, perhaps having seen a poorly relative and perhaps they had hurriedly left to go and pray; as a means of necessity and commitment to their God.

The fact this occurred in London, also makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Who was I to deliberately interrupt their personal prayers by starting my car before they had finished?

Now of course if I was in a desperate hurry myself, then I would have started my car and very politely told them that I needed to go urgently.
Based on their reaction to me, I am certain that they would have kindly waited for me to drive away before commencing their prayers.

But because their praying had no negative impact on me whatsoever, I chose to let them pray and simply wait for them to finish.

Ultimately I guess it comes down to normal human decency, respect, compassion and understanding.

I left the car park with a sense of fulfillment and pride, because I had observed something new and rather beautiful.
I felt humbled to have witnessed what I saw.


I also felt enlightened and a belief that I had learned something new.


So when you're voting, consider the actual human side to all of this rhetoric propaganda that is peddled by these politicians


You may just open your mind and experience something wonderful and new; free from prejudice and segregating populist conformity.


Choose to be a sheep if you like

Choose to be a wolf if you dare


Or simply choose to be a kind humble shepherd who shows care and compassion for all.



RD

Nice sentiment, but…..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2622830/Millions-eating-halal-food-without-knowing-How-big-brand-shops-restaurants-sell-ritually-slaughtered-meat-dont-label-it.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sharia-law-uk-courts-muslim-women-rights-few-compared-islamic-countries-religious-rulings-quran-a8064796.html

https://www.rferl.org/a/1061340.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna11207606

[Wickerman]

Well, if these people you speak of are going somewhere to collect their money I would be pretty sure that they are Asylum Seekers collecting their Home Office support from a Post Office?

The rate for that was £5 per day per person, so I'm guessing they were actually talking about £35 PER WEEK.

I believe it has gone up slightly since I worked in the asylum process, but only by a couple of quid.

The exact amount these days will be in the public domain.

Ah, so you are not actually involved in the process any more, and you admit there could have been changes?
Well, the current migrants are being interviewed, and have spoken of the current situation, as it is benefiting them, today, not 13 years ago.

[Wickerman]

Most people would have.
Point is, use a full stop !!

Jon, don't strain a point that is of no significance.
You could, just as easily have asked if I meant Powell was a member of the N.F. To which I could have explained, no, I did not.
But, rather, you chose to take an argumentative approach, which is why I asked what was your point?

That aside, your dictionary might refresh your memory as to what a 'comma' actually does - separates thoughts & ideas within the same sentence.
Look it up my friend, and don't be so anxious to be confrontational.

[Ms Diddles]

Ah, so you are not actually involved in the process any more, and you admit there could have been changes?
Well, the current migrants are being interviewed, and have spoken of the current situation, as it is benefiting them, today, not 13 years ago.

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get

There you go.

£49 per week, NOT £35 per day or anything like it.

[Wickerman]

This is all reform crap. The reason it’s nearly all males is that the women and children can’t make the journey as it’s too dangerous or far.

Thats more Woke nonsense.
Real men bring their families, women, wives & children out of harms way. They don't run away and leave them to face the troubles undefended.
Take Ukraine, they sent women & children out of harms way, many came to the UK, the MEN stay & fight the oppression.
Open your eyes!

Hotels are the only available accommodation because the government never bothered to provide suitable accommodation and btw they don’t get room service. £5 a day.
And the Islamophobic crap comes out. Push your racist/islamophobic crap elsewhere.

Good grief, it is the govnt. that are providing the hotels. They are the ones offering millions of your tax dollars to house the migrants.
Thats it, throw down the racist card when you run out of arguments.
Your ignorance betrays the fact you do not know the Reform party is multi-ethnic; comprised of Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Asians & whites.
If you can't Reform yourself, at least Inform yourself.

[GBinOz]

My England is dead and buried for good. I can accept it (because it’s a fact) but I don’t have to be happy about it.

Hi Mike,

I am of British descent (Scots and Welsh) and can empathise with your sense of loss. I dare say that the Australian Aboriginals, the New Zealand Maoris and the Native Americans, to name just three, also have a sense of loss, at the hands of the British Empire, and are less happy about it than are you. Indeed, Britain has been historically subsumed by the Romans, by the Germanic peoples, by the Vikings, by the Normans, by the French, and by the Dutch. Any observation of history will indicate that the occupation of land by any culture is only transitory, and the displaced are seldom content with the transition. Cold comfort I know, but at least you are not being put to the sword as were perhaps some of your ancestors.

Cheers, George

[Tab]

This is what I was talking about earlier Tab. You’re assuming that people who have an opinion that differs from your own are simply easily influenced sheep and that none of them are talking about the experiences that they, their family and their friends have experienced and still are experiencing.

No I'm not. I am saying that the vast majority have no direct experience, and only see these things from social media and the news.

Of course I accept that we are all influenced in some way by the media and both left and right of the spectrum have their own agendas and tend to stoke the fires. As I’ve said before…you know x amount of people, I know x amount of people. I don’t know a single person who sees things the way that you do Tab. Not one.

I'd be interested in hearing how you think I 'see things', I genuinely would. My posts so far have simply been pushing back on the notion that legal immigration is at fault.

Now, of course you might say, with absolute truth, that no one that you know thinks the way that I do but what we undoubtedly have is a significant number (and no, I can’t put a figure on it of course) but a significant number of people who are deeply unhappy with the way society is and the way that it appears to be moving. Not only about immigration but other issues too.

I 100% agree, I too am deeply unhappy with state of our nation. But I am not willing to dump all our ills at the door of immigration. Without a shadow of a doubt it is government policy on public services, criminal underfunding of pivotal services and just sheer greed that is the root cause of our current issues. My gripe is the notion that stopping immigration will be the magic bullet. Another gripe is the tone and language used by some when discussing immigration. I am not offended or a snowflake, I just think talking about these subjects in an accurate/truthful way, with respect and without hyperbole is the minimum we should be doing.

We clearly have different outlooks. We both undoubtedly want a better society but our differences might not just be how we should get there but on how that society should look.

Agree. Although I would put money on them not being quite as different as you might think.

There is one big difference though Tab that you can take heart in. Your hoped for society might happen (or something close to it) mine never will. My England is dead and buried for good. I can accept it (because it’s a fact) but I don’t have to be happy about it.

"All great changes are preceded by chaos." - Deepak Chopra

If there ever really was a "Your England", it was just a tiny phase in an ever evolving system. I truly hope for a better future.

All the best,
Tab

[The Rookie Detective]

Prosecutions in 2022 in England and Wales:

males
77% white
11% Black
7% Asian

females
88% white
6% Black
3% Asian

Statistics eh.

The majority of all VICTIMS AND OFFENDERS of STREET KNIFE CRIME are predominantly black males aged 12-19

If you eradicate all STREET KNIFE crime, then the percentage of teenage black males committing offenses, or being a victim of crime, falls to around only 1 to 3%

This points to the fact that the majority of all crime; excluding knife crime, is carried out by white people...

Rape
Indecent assault
Burglary
Theft
Assault
GBH
Gun crime
Domestic violence
Criminal damage
Offenses committed under influence of alcohol
Offenses committed under influence of drugs

Statements made in reference to statistics based on factual data, do not fall under within the realms of "racism" because they are designed to objectively inform and thus carry no bias or prejudice, and by proxy have no intent to cause offense.

1) Most victims of knife crime are black youths

2) Most offenders who commit knife crime are black youths

3) The overwhelming vast majority of all black youths are law obiding individuals with immense potential who deserve to be treated equally, and who will never be involved with any form of criminality whatsoever.

All 3 of those statements are true, because they are objective facts.

If you're a right wing anti-foreigner who would prefer to see people drown trying to cross the channel than offer them help as a human being, then you won't agree with statement 3

If you're a leftist, liberalist, or populist wokist, then you won't agree with statements 1 or 2 because you don't have the balls to address cultural issues.

Until one can accept that all 3 are true, then a true path to what is means to be a fair, moderate and decent human being can be found.

It's okay to discuss, challenge and question; as long as it's based on truth, sincerity, objectivety and empathy.

Statistics eh



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

The majority of all VICTIMS AND OFFENDERS of STREET KNIFE CRIME are predominantly black males aged 12-19

If you eradicate all STREET KNIFE crime, then the percentage of teenage black males committing offenses, or being a victim of crime, falls to around only 1 to 3%

This points to the fact that the majority of all crime; excluding knife crime, is carried out by white people...

Rape
Indecent assault
Burglary
Theft
Assault
GBH
Gun crime
Domestic violence
Criminal damage
Offenses committed under influence of alcohol
Offenses committed under influence of drugs

Statements made in reference to statistics based on factual data, do not fall under within the realms of "racism" because they are designed to objectively inform and thus carry no bias or prejudice, and by proxy have no intent to cause offense.

1) Most victims of knife crime are black youths

2) Most offenders who commit knife crime are black youths

3) The overwhelming vast majority of all black youths are law obiding individuals with immense potential who deserve to be treated equally, and who will never be involved with any form of criminality whatsoever.

All 3 of those statements are true, because they are objective facts.

If you're a right wing anti-foreigner who would prefer to see people drown trying to cross the channel than offer them help as a human being, then you won't agree with statement 3

If you're a leftist, liberalist, or populist wokist, then you won't agree with statements 1 or 2 because you don't have the balls to address cultural issues.

Until one can accept that all 3 are true, then a true path to what is means to be a fair, moderate and decent human being can be found.

It's okay to discuss, challenge and question; as long as it's based on truth, sincerity, objectivety and empathy.

Statistics eh



RD

Just to clarify String...

When I write "you're"...

I DONT mean you specifically; I am speaking in general terms and not directing anything at anyone specifically.

Just wanted to make sure that was crystal clear, so as not to cause any unintentional and inadvertent offense.


RD