Trump charged

[Fiver]

why does the US have such ongoing problems with elections?

We don't, except in the minds of Trump worshippers.

[jmenges]

Hey,
Remember when you include several external links in your post it runs a real risk of being flagged by our highly sophisticated A.I. system as spam.
Then it’s sent to the Mod to review and approve, which can take a considerable amount of time.
So, y’all might keep that in mind before you create a post with several links.

Have a good weekend,

JM

[c.d.]

The legal system is not a perfect process.

Oh my God! Can you imagine if that ever became widely known?

And this just in -- water is wet.

c.d.

[jason_c]

The U.S. legal system does provide remedies for those candidates who lost and believe there were voting irregularities which contributed to their loss. They can ask for a recount or take their case to the courts.

There is fraud in virtually every election and it would be naive to think otherwise. But study after study indicates that it is small and not significant enough to effect the outcome. It is only recently when it has become the norm for the losing candidate to claim fraud that this really has gained national attention.

c.d.

Sure, and the countless elections where there was undoubted voter fraud were left standing. The legal system is not a perfect process.

Electoral fraud does not effect the outcome of an election? Why then commit election fraud if not to effect the outcome? You see all those US elections from local dogcatcher, sheriff, and party primaries etc; elections where the difference in votes between candidates is often in the hundreds to a few thousand. Im going to suggest electoral fraud regularly changes the outcome of numerous US local and primary elections. What I cannot say with any confidence is that voter fraud regularly effects the outcome of Presidential elections.

[c.d.]

"Leaning" doesn't mean ****. You can't appeal a decision simply by making that allegation about a jury pool. You have to provide evidence of wrongdoing by the court which actually had a bearing on the outcome.

c.d.

[c.d.]

The U.S. legal system does provide remedies for those candidates who lost and believe there were voting irregularities which contributed to their loss. They can ask for a recount or take their case to the courts.

There is fraud in virtually every election and it would be naive to think otherwise. But study after study indicates that it is small and not significant enough to effect the outcome. It is only recently when it has become the norm for the losing candidate to claim fraud that this really has gained national attention.

c.d.

[jason_c]

Yep, an absolutely amazing coincidence.

c.d.

This from the same side who claimed Trump was elected through Russian election interference in 2016. Yes, it's a coincidence that elections are always corrupt when the wrong man wins.

[jason_c]

Btw Svensson, not to rehash old ground but here is even the BBC reporting that a trial in Florida is less likely to produce a Dem leaning jury pool. That jurisdiction matters. However, I suspect even the most anti-Trump partisans already knew this, but just couldn't admit to it as they are so desperate to make an example of him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65852062

'the state[Florida] is likely to produce a less Dem leaning jury pool than if the trial were held in the US capital'.

You can also interchange NY for the capital here.

[c.d.]

There’s only voter fraud or problems with the electoral system when the ‘wrong’ person is elected.

Yep, an absolutely amazing coincidence.

c.d.

[String]

There’s only voter fraud or problems with the electoral system when the ‘wrong’ person is elected.

[jason_c]

why does the US have such ongoing problems with elections? Countries like the UK, Germany or Netherlands have no such problems. and i have not heard anything substantial from Scandinavia or France/Spain.

Voter Id would be one reason. The US Federal system, I believe, must also play a role in electoral corruption. I think it unlikely that 50 different states, all using somewhat different systems, can all guarantee fair elections in any given election year. I think even yourself would admit historically the US has had fairly serious voting corruption. However, I would be wrong to point to one side doing it. It's a game both parties can play, but imho the Dems being a little better at it.

[Svensson]

Maybe, but US electoral history is one of regular corruption, sometimes minor, sometimes substantial. Yet the number of actual elections overturned is fairly small. They virtually all have legal backing behind them. It still doesn't make them all free and fair. I say this as someone who thinks the alternative is worse. The US electorate & body politic should at least tell themselves their elections are fair. It's possibly the end of the Republic otherwise. Still, it shouldn't prevent reformers trying to clean up the dirty dealings in US elections.

why does the US have such ongoing problems with elections? Countries like the UK, Germany or Netherlands have no such problems. and i have not heard anything substantial from Scandinavia or France/Spain.

[c.d.]

As for the 2020 election it was an utter farce. I do not take any notice of the courts deciding they were legitimate.

Then I have to assume that you also did not take any notice of the January 6th hearings. Because if you had, you would have seen and heard testimony (all under oath) from Trump's inner circle, his most trusted advisors and attorneys as well as those individuals running his reelection campaign. All fellow Republicans who wanted nothing more than to see him reelected. But they all told him the same thing. "Mr. President, we can't find any evidence of fraud in the election".

You also apparently did not take any notice of testimony from REPUBLICAN Attorneys' General in states where Trump asked them to overturn the election results. Their response -- sorry, can't do it. We have no evidence of fraud.

You also don't take any notice of the courts and determinations by Trump appointed judges who saw no evidence of fraud.

I guess it is true that denial ain't just a river.

c.d.

[Svensson]

No equivalence in depravity of J6 and the BLM riots? A number of people died in the June 2020 riots. I have seen at least one video that I can remember(there will be more) that will have left life changing injuries.

the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...ashington,_D.C. does not mention that the June 2020 DC riots were lethal. The bottom half of the page lists some deaths that were generally connected to the various "Protestsof the murder of George Floyd". hovering over the list you will find:

1. On May 30, 2020, James Scurlock, a 22-year-old black male protester, was fatally shot by a 38-year-old bar owner, Jacob "Jake" Gardner. The shooting took place during George Floyd protests in Omaha, Nebraska, in the Old Market area of the city.

2. On June 1, 2020, David McAtee, a 53-year-old African-American man, was fatally shot by the Kentucky Army National Guard in Louisville during nationwide protests following the murder of George Floyd and the killing of Breonna Taylor.

3. On June 2, 2020, David Dorn, a 77-year-old retired police captain, was fatally shot after interrupting the burglary of a pawn shop in The Ville, St. Louis.^[2] The incident occurred on the same night as Riots in St. Louis, Missouri over the murder of George Floyd. (I would even ask why this is listed here becasue the burglary was not connected to the protests).

4. Sean Monterrosa was a 22-year-old Latino American man who was fatally shot on June 2, 2020, by Vallejo police officer Jarrett Tonn.

5. On July 25, 2020, Garrett Foster, a 28-year-old man, was murdered in Austin, Texas by 30-year old Daniel Perry. Perry had driven into a crowd of protesters during a Black Lives Matter protest following the May 2020 police murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota

6. On August 29, 2020, Aaron Danielson, an American supporter of the far-right group Patriot Prayer,^[1][2] was shot and killed after participating in a caravan which drove through Portland, Oregon, displaying banners and signs supporting President Donald Trump,^[3] and clashing with participants in the local George Floyd protests.^[3][4]

So 4 out of 5 deaths listed here (I am not counting number 3) are the result of violence directed TOWARDS the protestors.

I get it, you were in favour of the BLM movement. It still doesn't give them a clean slate to murder, maim and inflict carnage to already deprived areas.

I don't know what you mean by me being "in favour of BLM". this is not a yes/no question in a gallup poll. I would state it like this: BLM have a legitimate grievance that has plagued american society for decades (some say even centuries). there has been an endless list cases of (not just police) brutality against black americans and persistent inaction by GOP politicians to address this brutality. there comes a point where protest is needed to draw attention to the issue and is their right to do so.

Again, no equivalence to JAN6. BLM protesters were not armed with bear-spray, gallows and rip-ties and stormed police stations looking for particular officers. There were no democrat politicians on stage, one after another telling them to "fight like hell" in order to "preserve" thier country. Elisabeth Warren did NOT prophezise the day before that "All hell will break lose" (that was Steve Bannon btw).

So no, no equivalence.

As for the 2020 election it was an utter farce.

This is basically the same discussion I had with celee a couple of years ago.

If you have doubts about the legitimacy of a ballot, you can develop and then present your evidence to court. the court will decide if your evidence is good enough and then decide on appropriate measures to correct the problem. The Trump campaign have failed to present evidence of corruption that would have altered the outcome of the election not once, not twice, not 10 times, not 20 times but more than 60 times. More than 60 times.

So where is this evidence? Do you not realise that you continue to be grifted for your money and more and more donations from the likes of Trump or Kari Lake? Or Mike Pillow who clearly has lost a few screws and is about to crank up another one of his "Cyber Symposiums" so he can sell you more of his pillows, bathrobes or slippers? Or do you not need any evidence from someone like Donald Trump?

there comes a point where you need to facereality and move on. It seems to me, you're not prepared to do that and would rather belive something else ithout a single shred of evidence. Like mermaids, unicorns or lizard people.

cheers.

[jason_c]

In Michigan, the documents filed in the election fraud lawsuit weren't even run through a spell-checker. Their supposed election fraud expert claimed degrees from institutions that did not offer those degrees and alleged voter fraud in counties that did not exist in Michigan. In spite of months to file and clear and repeated information from the court on the deadline for filing claims, they failed to do so.

In Pennsylvania, the Secretary of the Commonwealth told counties that they could give people whose mail-in ballots had been rejected due to failing to sign or date the ballot a chance to correct ("cure") the ballots. Some counties did this; others did not. A few voters from counties that did not allow ballot curing sued the Secretary and the counties that did allow ballot curing. The judge ruled they were had a right to cure their ballots, but they were not suing the people who had denied them the right to vote - their own counties. The judge also rightly rejected their proposed remedy of throwing out all votes from Pennsylvania.

The court concluded "Prohibiting certification of the election results would not reinstate the Individual Plaintiffs' right to vote. It would simply deny more than 6.8 million people their right to vote."

The farce is the election fraud lawsuits.

Maybe, but US electoral history is one of regular corruption, sometimes minor, sometimes substantial. Yet the number of actual elections overturned is fairly small. They virtually all have legal backing behind them. It still doesn't make them all free and fair. I say this as someone who thinks the alternative is worse. The US electorate & body politic should at least tell themselves their elections are fair. It's possibly the end of the Republic otherwise. Still, it shouldn't prevent reformers trying to clean up the dirty dealings in US elections.