Just where do we go from here?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Errata,

Eddie Cochran... Three steps to Heaven (a song)

perhaps that something to do with the reference?


I don't know.. I'm just an old ex-DJ.....



Phil

[DVV]

For those who are interested, a soldier attacked and injured by knife in Paris.
And guess what ?
By a Young Muslim.
But nothing to do with islam, of course.
And the horrible crimes committed by Mohammed Merah in Toulouse (including two Jewish children shot in the head) have nothing to do with islam either.

Poor Mohammed Merah. He didn't know how gently the prophet treated the Jews.

[claire]

And you know what? I'm not going to die in a Muslim extremist attack. Likely neither are you. I think we're far more likely to get hit by a bus. And this may be more than slightly mad, but I relate to a Muslim killing a soldier more than I relate to some random schmuck who kills his wife for the insurance money. Maybe relate is the wrong word, but at least the Muslim was angry, and for a pretty good reason, even if the recipient of his rage was an inappropriate choice. The guy who killed his wife is just an ass. So I don't see the Muslim as worse than the schmuck with the wife. I don't exactly see him as better, but if you're going to kill someone, it should at least be for a good reason. It's not noble, but it's relate-able. Angry people lash out. What the schmucks excuse?

Wow.

I'm more likely to die in an extremist attack than get hit by a bus--but that's Baghdad for you. And most of the Iraqis around me are sickened by that, and can't 'relate' to extremist attacks, here or abroad. Many of them are desperate to get out, and then realise that the extremism they want to escape from has taken hold in the west...and then lose hope. They don't relate, and don't want to relate, to that sort of sick attack...and yet many of them have lost almost everything they held valuable, for a whole host of reasons. So, tell me, how is it possible to 'relate' to someone who's lost nothing but allowed himself to get so stewed in the foment of some extremist mosque that he kills a stranger?

This is not an Islam question--saying that is an excuse to do nothing about it, under the auspices of 'freedom of religious expression.' Killing soldiers is not religious expression--it's hate fueled extremism and it's from that that we should take every measure to protect ourselves, whatever its guise.

[Errata]

on in which you said you could "relate" to the motives of the Islamist who killed the solder in Woolwich is without doubt the most crass and revolting post I have ever seen on this site.

Well clearly I haven't been trying hard enough. What is so revolting about understanding the motives of a criminal? I get it. I see why they think the way they do. I understand the relationship between cause and effect, and in my darkest days I have had similar thoughts. I have thought that killing a man LIKE the men who hurt me was justified. I didn't hang on to that thought, but it did pass through my mind. I think everyone has had the impulse to lash out at someone who is not in the end responsible for our pain. We don't do it, but we think about it. It's hardly monstrous for me to see the relationship between the perception and the act. I don't respond favorably to it, the way I "relate" to Shakespeare. I relate in that I see how that ended up happening. I can relate, see cause and effect. Not relate as in I totally want to do that myself one day.

I don't object at all to outrage created by a murdered soldier. I don't feel a whole lot of it myself, but I'm American and all of my loved ones are now out of harm's way. But I do recognize that this is how the world works. And that this too shall pass, whatever choices we make. The world works in cycles. This is yet another of those cycles. Whether we fear marauding Vikings, Christian crusaders, Plague, Napoleon, Nazis, Communism... it all passes. Usually without a lot of useful work expended to make it happen. This time it is radical Muslims, and this time the potential attacks could include dirty bombs. We can fight, we can sit and watch, we can ignore it. It will pass. This will burn itself out. It could take another 200 years, it could take another 20. But eventually problems at home will supersede any international gripes they may have, and this will die out. It always does. And I don't know that fighting it makes it go away faster. I really don't. I can see both arguments there. But the question we need to ask ourselves alongside the question "What are we going to do about it?" is "Who do we want to be when this is over?". Do we want to be bitter, angry, and/or vengeful? Do we want to look back on this time and say that we were not bowed by fear? Do we need to know we fought? Do we need to know that we kept our pride? During the Holocaust the Jews had no reason to think it would end. They had no reason to think it would not last 200 years. Many chose to retain their dignity rather than fight. It's what they needed to do. It's who they wanted to be when that cycle passed. And they weren't wrong. The one's who chose to fight weren't wrong either. It's a personal choice, and one that cannot be made for others. When this is over, I need to know that the terrorists didn't make me hate. It's important to me, and it's what I've chosen. And I don't think that choice is right for everybody. But I do think that people need to recognize that it is a valid choice, and the fact that I made it doesn't make me an idiot or a coward. It makes me a product of my history. We all are.

[Errata]

Wow.

I'm more likely to die in an extremist attack than get hit by a bus--but that's Baghdad for you.

Yes, you are more likely to die in an extremist attack than get hit by a bus. But Smoking Joe, who I was replying to, is somewhere in England and to my eternal geographic shame I can't quite place where. He's more likely to get hit by a bus. Or possibly a taxi. And it isn't even really fair to say I am likely to get hit by a bus, since I think right now we are leading the world in tractor accidents, so I'll probably be run down by a John Deere going about 15 miles per hour.

As for the rest, I addressed that in my last post.

[Mayerling]

- ???

Christ stopped an angry crowd from stoning an adulterous woman to death. They dragged her before him, claiming she was a "sinner" and should be stoned to death.

Christ sat there quietly tracing in the dirt with a stick while the mob waited for what he would say- a very smart move, by the way, as it gave the rabid crowd a chance to calm down.

Then he said, "Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone."

Those in the mob hesitated... then one by one dropped their stones and dispersed.

When they were gone, he asked the woman, "Who has condemned you?"

She replied, "No one, Lord". Christ said, "Neither then do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more."

--------------------------------------------

Fellow Casebookers,

I am appalled by the vitriol present on this thread, and particularly by the attacks of some on the personal religious beliefs of others.

I am a Christian. I'm not ashamed of it.

Like any human being, I lose my temper sometimes, but I strive to live up to the example set by Christ and "love my neighbor as myself".

I sincerely hope I have always treated all of you with respect and kindness. If I haven't, I apologize now and ask you to forgive me.

Would anyone like to attack me? This is your opportunity.

If you want to do so, you might want to do it in the next few days, as I am seriously considering withdrawing from Casebook.

Best regards,
Archaic

You are right Archaic, the thread did become too viperish. But don't withdraw from Casebook. Just ignore the thread.

Jeff

[Archaic]

Wow.

I'm more likely to die in an extremist attack than get hit by a bus--but that's Baghdad for you. And most of the Iraqis around me are sickened by that, and can't 'relate' to extremist attacks, here or abroad. Many of them are desperate to get out, and then realise that the extremism they want to escape from has taken hold in the west...and then lose hope. They don't relate, and don't want to relate, to that sort of sick attack...and yet many of them have lost almost everything they held valuable, for a whole host of reasons. So, tell me, how is it possible to 'relate' to someone who's lost nothing but allowed himself to get so stewed in the foment of some extremist mosque that he kills a stranger?

This is not an Islam question--saying that is an excuse to do nothing about it, under the auspices of 'freedom of religious expression.' Killing soldiers is not religious expression--it's hate fueled extremism and it's from that that we should take every measure to protect ourselves, whatever its guise.

I agree with you Claire.

And I bet terrorists watch with satisfaction whenever they see us "Westerners" fighting amongst ourselves and attacking one another over our personal beliefs.

Or making the appalling statement that we "don't care" about the suffering of others, as long as "it's not my family/my religion/my skin tone/my fill-in-the-blank-mass-generalization." Hateful extremists would count it as a victory for their side if we lost our humanity, our compassion, our belief in human rights, and our belief in the rule of law.

Remember the old saying, "Divide and conquer?" One of the goals of terrorists is to sew the seeds of division.

Does anybody here really want to help them achieve their goal?
Many are unintentionally playing into their hands with all the rude and vitriolic tit-for-tat compulsive posting. Does everyone on Casebook really need to hear every detail of what ever has always irritated you about some other group or belief system? Perhaps starting your own internet blog could provide you with the outlet you seek.

"Pub Talk" doesn't need to equate with "Bar Fight".

I honestly think it's possible to express one's feelings, beliefs and opinions without estranging fellow Casebookers. In the past couple of days I've had pm's and emails from over half a dozen Casebookers who are so disgusted with the vitriol on this thread that they seriously considering leaving. Many of them are long-time members and highly-valued contributors; the kind of people I've always considered to be the "backbone" of Casebook. I appealed to them to stay, and now I find myself considering leaving!

I'd like to think EVERY Casebooker has the maturity, intelligence, and goodwill to not wish to offend others. Maybe we could all stop for a minute, take a deep breath, take a break and go for a walk if feeling upset or angry, then quietly re-read our posts, removing put-downs, insults, and other offensive language before submitting them.

It's our choice whether this is a constructive dialogue or a stupid bar-fight where even the innocent bystanders get hurt.

Stay safe, Claire. I'll be thinking of you.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Robert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2GkncV2jOo

[Smoking Joe]

But Smoking Joe, who I was replying to, is somewhere in England and to my eternal geographic shame I can't quite place where. He's more likely to get hit by a bus. Or possibly a taxi.

.

You may well be right ....at this particular moment in time. But I am sure you would agree that if Islamic terrorists get hold of enough material to make a dirty nuclear type bomb ,the n the odds would change rather dramatically.And that almost certainly will happen sometime-someplace.
I would rather die on my feet facing the enemy than on my knees bowing to them....or kissing a Mullahs backside.
After reading your post again,I understand your comments better.They are not without merit.We have to look after ourselves and our nearest,and let the devil take the hindmost. .Goodwill wont make any difference-We tried that., Our govts do very little thats any use ,and God doesnt appear to be interested either .It seems to some at least that we have but one option ...to stand around holding hands and singing "nearer my god than thee" while all around us Rome lies burning.
Dominicus Vobiscum
Kind Regards

[Ally]

I honestly think it's possible to express one's feelings, beliefs and opinions without estranging fellow Casebookers. In the past couple of days I've had pm's and emails from over half a dozen Casebookers who are so disgusted with the vitriol on this thread that they seriously considering leaving. Many of them are long-time members and highly-valued contributors; the kind of people I've always considered to be the "backbone" of Casebook. I appealed to them to stay, and now I find myself considering leaving!

I'd like to think EVERY Casebooker has the maturity, intelligence, and goodwill to not wish to offend others. Maybe we could all stop for a minute, take a deep breath, take a break and go for a walk if feeling upset or angry, then quietly re-read our posts, removing put-downs, insults, and other offensive language before submitting them.

It's our choice whether this is a constructive dialogue or a stupid bar-fight where even the innocent bystanders get hurt.

Stay safe, Claire. I'll be thinking of you.

Best regards,
Archaic

Really? Let me ask you this Archaic. When precisely did you and the other Casebookers decide to "leave"? Was it in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam or only in the last 10 when Christianity got the same treatment?

I am going to guess for the vast majority it was the latter. In other words, it's not REALLY offensive, until the message hits a little close to home. When it's your religion on the hotseat, suddenly it's outrageous, the attacks are horrid and how offensive and worthy of leaving a board entirely. I am guessing no one was going to up and leave the board because muslims were getting called on the carpet, and yet, by and large not a single negative thing was said about christian people except that the Bible contained as many negative things as the Quran and Christians could use it to justify wrongdoing just like the muslims. Muslim people as a whole were being attacked and it's an intellectual debate. The Christian religion is being pointed to as just as flawed as Islam, and suddenly it's a dealbreaker offensive assault.

It is an interesting perspective isn't it?

[Smoking Joe]

Really? Let me ask you this Archaic. When precisely did you and the other Casebookers decide to "leave"? Was it in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam or only in the last 10 when Christianity got the same treatment?

I am going to guess for the vast majority it was the latter. In other words, it's not REALLY offensive, until the message hits a little close to home. When it's your religion on the hotseat, suddenly it's outrageous, the attacks are horrid and how offensive and worthy of leaving a board entirely. I am guessing no one was going to up and leave the board because muslims were getting called on the carpet, and yet, by and large not a single negative thing was said about christian people except that the Bible contained as many negative things as the Quran and Christians could use it to justify wrongdoing just like the muslims. Muslim people as a whole were being attacked and it's an intellectual debate. The Christian religion is being pointed to as just as flawed as Islam, and suddenly it's a dealbreaker offensive assault.

It is an interesting perspective isn't it?

That was a nice Post . Felt much the same but refrained from saying as much for obvious reasons.Plus unfortunately I wouldnt have been capable of framing it even half as eloquently. And no I am not saying that because you are Admin and I am not on a boot licking exercise either. Credit where credit is due 10/10

[Errata]

You may well be right ....at this particular moment in time. But I am sure you would agree that if Islamic terrorists get hold of enough material to make a dirty nuclear type bomb ,the n the odds would change rather dramatically.And that almost certainly will happen sometime-someplace.
I would rather die on my feet facing the enemy than on my knees bowing to them....or kissing a Mullahs backside.
After reading your post again,I understand your comments better.They are not without merit.We have to look after ourselves and our nearest,and let the devil take the hindmost. .Goodwill wont make any difference-We tried that., Our govts do very little thats any use ,and God doesnt appear to be interested either .It seems to some at least that we have but one option ...to stand around holding hands and singing "nearer my god than thee" while all around us Rome lies burning.
Dominicus Vobiscum
Kind Regards

Wow. That last sentence was the most mixed metaphor I ever did see. I kinda love it. There are options between on your feet against an enemy or bowing to them. A personal favorite of mine is to simply not play the game. Around here it's not like there aren't David Attenborough worthy dominance battles between groups of people. It's like PR guys tell you. Never accept the premise of the question. I don't accept the premise that Islam is a violent religion. I don't accept the premise that terrorists aren't "real" Muslims. Faith is far too freakin complicated to ever make something an absolute. We have centuries old books with centuries old rules pertaining to centuries old realities, and making all of that relevant in a modern life never turns out the same way twice. And we don't have any divine visitations anymore telling us who is right and who is wrong.
But just because a religion is involved doesn't mean it isn't political. The Judaic rebellions were political. The Crusades were political. The Inquisition was political. Free the Holy Land sure sounds nice, but really it was a way of conquering the Byzantine Empire, which was already controlled by Christians. Half of the bystanders killed in the Crusade were Christian. They just weren't European. So even when people say it's for their religion, usually it isn't really. It just means they don't think they are going to hell for what they are doing. For those faiths that have a hell. So really it's the politics. Even for Muslim extremists who have never lived in a Muslim country (though to be fair those guys tend to be a little unstable. If not Islamic extremism then a cult, or a militia group) So talk to me about the politics, the geography, the history, the money, the resources. Because that's what it boils down to. Leave the religion out of it. Because absolutes just don't exist there.

[Smoking Joe]

Wow. That last sentence was the most mixed metaphor I ever did see. I kinda love it. .

YUP smokings the name,
mixed metaphors are the game.


So much fun arent they? But we will burn that bridge when we come to it.
My favourite is Its time to step up to the plate and lay your cards on the table.
I know they are frowned upon.....but I love em to bits.

[Archaic]

Really? Let me ask you this Archaic. When precisely did you and the other Casebookers decide to "leave"? Was it in the first 20 pages when horrific things were being said about Islam or only in the last 10 when Christianity got the same treatment?

I am going to guess for the vast majority it was the latter.

Hi Ally.

I'm afraid you are completely wrong in your supposition.

I began to think about giving up on Casebook quite close to the beginning of the thread, when I read the posts collectively blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few, insisting that Muslims cannot and do not even wish to live in peace, and calling for their complete expulsion from all Western nations. Subsequent posts teetered on calling for their outright extermination.

I was appalled to witness so many Casebookers directing their anger not at the terrorists who murdered the British soldier or set off the bombs in Boston, but at ALL Muslims. Almost 25% of the people living in the world are Muslim. Nearly 1 in 4.
- Are 1.6 BILLION human beings actually all alike? Really? Are they ALL to be judged guilty for the actions of a few?

Adolph Hitler was a big fan of the concept of 'Collective Guilt'. Remember the hideous propaganda film "The Eternal Jew", where Jewish human beings are directly equated with rats and other loathsome vermin? That was a brilliant propaganda tactic, it helped turn off the consciences of millions of Nazis and desensitized them to the atrocities they were committing. The Jewish victims were no longer human men, women, and children- they were VERMIN, who "had" to be exterminated to "save" the race and the reich.

Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it. Extremist hate speech doesn't belong on Casebook. It doesn't belong for a myriad of reasons; a very minor one being that it's a total waste of server space.

The Casebookers I exchanged pm's and emails with very early in this thread can vouch for the fact that I told them I was utterly horrified by the hatred that was being spewed upon all Muslims. In fact, I wrote and thanked a couple of individuals who had the courage to speak up early in this thread and calmly voice their objections to that hate speech. They also tried to calm down the tone of the thread, which I think was the right thing to do, and I thanked them for that too. This occurred before the subjects of Christianity and Judaism and everything else got thrown into the meleé.

I stayed out of the thread in the beginning both because I was so horrified by it and because in the beginning it revolved around around the domestic situation in the UK. As an American I didn't feel sufficiently knowledgeable about UK internal politics. But my friends can attest to the fact that I told them early on that one of the aspects of this thread upsetting me the most was that people I have long considered to be friends - including those who profess to be Christian - were among those spewing hatred against all Muslims, and spewing vitriol at all those who disagreed with them. That shocked me.

This thread has been like some kind of warped abusefest, with individuals attacking one another's personal spiritual beliefs and doing their utmost to put each other down. I remarked to a handful of Casebook friends that some thread participants seemed to feel they were scoring imaginary "points" against each other. I told my friends I felt ashamed of the deliberate meanness. They agreed it was disgusting, but counseled me to try not to take it so much to heart. But what must this thread look like to non-members, to potential Casebook members, to the public looking on? I guarantee you, if this thread has been available for reading 6 years ago I would never have joined Casebook.

I stayed out of the thread for over 350 posts, until I read a post claiming that Jesus Christ "had advocated stoning women to death". That's when I replied. I did not in any way attack the person who made that post - who by the way I consider a FRIEND. I simply thought I could clear up a misunderstanding, and offered the lines where Christ save the life of the adulteress by saying to the angry mob, "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone". (My post is there for anybody to read. I think it's #354.)

Ironically, Ally, I made my second post just to agree with your post where you offered the lines, "Judge not, lest ye be judged", even though the person you were arguing with is a Christian and a personal friend of mine.

In that first post I felt th etime had come that I ought to speak up. I just felt at that point that if people really want to attack others simply because they despise their personal beliefs, OK, I'm not going to duck and hide like I'm ashamed or something- here I am, this is my personal belief, and you can attack me if you want to.

Interestingly, Ally, you seem to be the only person who has wanted to.

You're welcome to exercise your right to freedom of speech, but in this case you based your attack upon a mistaken supposition.

I realize you may not believe me; that's alright; I accept that. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to give you a list of the names of all the people I spoke to regarding my revulsion for all of the hate speech displayed on this thread, because they have a right to privacy. But if any of them feel like telling you via pm or something that's OK with me.

But I certainly don't want anybody to feel obligated to do so- after all, mistaken suppositions seem to make the world go 'round.

Peace everybody,
Archaic

[DVV]

Christianity has not been offended so far.
Common sense has.
Indeed, how could nonsense offend anything else ?

Jesus told people to turn the other cheek, love their ennemies, and accepted to die on the cross.

Everybody is welcome to think these are stupid advices, but saying that all religions are the same, when Muhammad ordered murders, made war, allowed rape, promised heaven with 70 virgins to any Muslim who would die in a battle, is nothing but a gross nonsense.