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  • Originally posted by celee View Post

    Forced sterilization Hitler's Germany. The forced sterilizations began in January 1934, and altogether an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 people were sterilized under the law. A diagnosis of "feeblemindedness" provided the grounds in the majority of cases, followed by schizophrenia and epilepsy. Most of the persons targeted by the law were patients in mental hospitals and other institutions. The majority of those sterilized were between the ages of twenty and forty,

    Forced sterilization in Germany was the forerunner of the systematic killing of the mentally ill and handicapped. In October 1939, Hitler himself initiated a decree which empowered physicians to grant a "mercy death" to "patients considered incurable according to the best available human judgment of their state of health." The intent of the so-called "euthanasia" program, however, was not to relieve the suffering of the chronically ill. The Nazi regime used the term as a euphemism: its aim was to exterminate the mentally ill and the handicapped, and elderly thus "cleansing" the "Aryan" race of persons considered genetically defective and a financial burden to society. In all, between 200,000 and 250,000 mentally and physically handicapped persons were murdered from 1939 to 1945 under the T-4 and other "euthanasia" programs.

    The disgusting thing is I am sure some people will approve of Nazi Eugenics.
    This has nothing to do with Health Care. You complained about "Socialized medicine". it is worth noting that Bismarck first brought in a health care system of some kind (nowhere as sophisticated as what the western world, bar the USA, has these days). Hitler then used the existing infrastructure to implement his medical terrorism.

    It's like saying that Autobahns are fascist because they were used to carry weapons, armies, slave labour and ship people to death camps in Nazi Germany.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ally View Post

      And I hate to break it to you, sugar, but the United States of America enacted enforced sterilization decades before the Nazis did. We did it first. And we did it longer, up until the 70s. Once again, nothing to do with socialized medicine.
      Sorry Ally, I hate to break it to you but it has been adjudicated that you have to provide a source for this.....

      Comment


      • Finally, on vaccines, Celee, there is a blog post from University of Missouri on the intentional misinformation around Covid and in particular via the VAERS db:

        https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories...what-they-seem

        you cant say that I'm not trying to back up my opinion with sources, ey?

        Cheers.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Svensson View Post

          Sorry Ally, I hate to break it to you but it has been adjudicated that you have to provide a source for this.....
          Sure thing, it's actually law. Hitler is actually said to have modeled his eugenics program on our Eugenics program. The main Supreme Court case that decided forced sterilization was legal was actually in Virginia in the 1920s, and I worked in Special Education in Virginia for a dozen or so years, and I actually met one of the last people who was sterilized under the laws there. (This is of course not evidence, just anecdotal, and why I know about it.)


          Not sure what you'd like as proof, but here's a brief account:
          Here is the basic Wiki article (which I know is not great) but gives a really decent overview of the history and is, by and large factual.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugeni..._United_States

          Summation of the Virginia law that went to the Supreme Court:

          http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/...ically%20unfit.

          Actual Court transcription of the judgement:

          https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/274/200

          Virginia Governor apologizing for it in 2002:

          https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...ry3-story.html


          https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2002/05/03/va-apologizes-to-the-victims-of-sterilizations/9cbfe2ad-950c-47f8-a186-c68e4d1e362e/



          Basic Eugenic info:

          https://www.npr.org/2017/03/24/52136...sterilizations

          There's several books about it too, if you're interested. It's still legal.

          Let all Oz be agreed;
          I'm Wicked through and through.

          Comment


          • Oh and just one more thing, there's current speculation that it's being practiced today in immigration detainment camps and prisons. Apparently the rate of hysterctomies for detained women far exceeds the "norm". Don't know if this is true, but .... I wouldn't be surprised.

            https://lawreview.syr.edu/could-forc...gal-in-the-us/

            Let all Oz be agreed;
            I'm Wicked through and through.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Svensson View Post

              For example:

              1. "Tucker Carlson admits he lies on his show: ‘I really try not to... [but] I certainly do’"
              https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1919738.html

              2. Scott D. Pierce: Fox lawyers admit Tucker Carlson doesn’t always tell the truth
              https://www.sltrib.com/artsliving/20...-d-pierce-fox/

              3. Fox News won a court case by 'persuasively' arguing that no 'reasonable viewer' takes Tucker Carlson seriously
              https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-...20-9?r=US&IR=T

              4. Reasonable Viewers Don’t Look to Tucker Carlson for Facts, Fox Asserts
              https://www.courthousenews.com/fight...st-hyperbolic/

              5. Fox News Argues in Court That Tucker Carlson Doesn’t Have an Obligation to Tell the Truth
              https://www.themarysue.com/fox-news-...r-carlsons-bs/


              I think that should do for now.
              Aii leftwing nonsense post a source where FOX news says Tucker lies or Tucker admits he lies I bet you did not read one of those articles. j can believe I read all 5 articles they are all related to the same slander allegation. lol. I will find Tucker's response to the allegation and post it so we can judge fairly. Would you consider the Mary Sue a primary news source lol lol.

              Comment


              • Your original question to me Svennson was, What in particular do you not agree with in German health care between 1933 and 1945? I answered your question but you wish to change the discussion to socialism. You are getting boring Svenn.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  When someone goes to see a Doctor and the Doctor gives them a diagnosis and suggests treatment how many of them say “no. I’m afraid that I disagree with you on that so I’ll completely ignore your advice?” How many people, on an a potentially life threatening thing like this, would refuse a vaccine because they think that it might be ineffective despite what experts tell us? They have nothing to lose so why not just have it?

                  Why is it that people with zero medical or scientific knowledge feel qualified to tell the worlds experts that they are wrong? This is clearly a case of people listening to silly conspiracy theories on the net (with a few people who are just scared of needles thrown in)



                  The jab has significantly slowed down the spread of the virus. I know this because the experts tell us this and I have no reason to disbelieve them. That effort has been retarded by selfish, gullible people refusing to get vaccinated and selfish people who haven’t followed guidelines. As soon as the pandemic began the conspiracy theories started. These people cause more harm than pandemics.
                  Just in response to this last point Herlock , and again this is what i know in my state N.S.W to be a fact , the soure being from the N.S.W Govt web page [if anyone want to check it out] . In late November last year when our state reached 95% double vaxxed we had less than 500 cases , just about the time that the Omicron strain hit our shores . The current Premier Dominic Perrottet declared the state open to all saying ''its time we all lived with the virus in the comminuty'' . The population of N.S.W is just a tick over 8 million people , that would leave 400,000 unvaxxed in just two short months, as of today N.S.W has 803,000 infections of covid19 . Im sure you can see the problem when it comes to the spread of the virus and the jab , i know you like to think that the experts are always right when it comes to covid and we should always follow the science and the data as i do ,but when they say one thing and in just two short months we see the opposite , i do see a reason to disbelieve them on occasions , with respect and kindness Fishy.
                  'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • Svennson concerning Tucker. The channel said that Carlson's show serves as "opinion commentary" that is "not reasonably understood as being factual." It also argued that McDougal's case "failed to allege actual malice." I understand you are desperate to be right. However, that is almost exactly what was posted by me. earlier. I admit FOX said Tucker Carlson is an opinion show, all their nighttime shows are opinion shows, and FOX claimed that he should not be held to the same standard as their news anchors. What part of that did you not understand? Also, it took me two minutes to find FOX's official comments online. FOX never said Tucker Carlson lies or Don't believe anything Tucker says. His show represents his opinions. I admit that. I posted that earlier. I am getting tired of these gotcha moments of yours and having to defend my position by your standards. You obviously do not take the time to read my post so why do you respond to them? I answered your question about Nazi Germany and you respond by wanting to discuss socialism even after I posted how I felt about socialism in a previous post, You warned me not to bring up socialism in a previous post and your question to me about Nazi Germany had nothing to do about socialism. I enjoy a fun discussion but you are all about one-upmanship. It is very infantile. Post back with me when you have something interesting to discuss and you actually want to discuss it Peace out.

                    Comment


                    • But celee, we have been discussing something interesting all along. Namely, how is it possible that someone like you, who by being on Casebook.org in the first place, has at one point in the past shown an interest an appreciation in historical facts and in the adjudication of historical sources became someone who has no connection to reality whatsoever?

                      I mean, when you sit there and type "30,000 health care workers in New York were fired because they refused the vaccine", do you not stop for a second and think "think simply can not be true"? I know why you don't think this can;t be true, it's because you have been systematically been bombarded with bullshit by Fox, OAN, Newsmax and Townhall for god knows how long. They got you right where they wanted which is where your bullshit meter has been broken and they can feed you any old ****. The entire thread is a testament to my hypothesis.

                      On Tucker Carlson, this is not "leftwing nonsense post a source where FOX news says Tucker lies or Tucker admits he lies". these are court filing. You know, put your hand on a bible and you perjure yourself when you lie. what came out of this is

                      Would a reasonable viewer be coming here [to ‘Tucker Carlson Tonight’] and thinking, ‘This is where I’m going to be hearing the news of the day’?” It seems that the judge adjudicated "No" and this was the outcome that the the Fox lawyers wanted.
                      The same article says:
                      "And in an earlier court filing, Murphy referred to “Tucker Carlson Tonight” as “hyperbolic opinion commentary,” not “sober factual reporting.”"

                      Which is exactly the problem that I have been describing.

                      this means, by extension, that Tucker Carlson's use of the VAERS database is suspected to be “hyperbolic opinion commentary,” not “sober factual reporting.”. So the question then becomes: Is it, or is it not? The fact that you are using the VAERS database as data for your argument that 22k or 11k (I really donlt care about the real number in the database) shows the effect that Tucker Carlson has on you. I have provided https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories...what-they-seem which is a blog that discuses the misinformation around the VAERS db, as used by Tucker Carlson, and this goes right to the heart of the matter what we are discussing.

                      And yes, Tucker Carlson is on tape as saying "I lie [sometimes]" unless you want to accuse the tape, a physical object, of having political bias, then this is pretty much the proof you were asking for.

                      Comment


                      • Lol, So anyone see how this whole thing went and wonder why it's useless trying to do anything other than mock these people?
                        Celee says:

                        Originally posted by celee View Post
                        . Nazi Germany is the best example of how things can go off the rails with socialized medicine.
                        Sven asks what's his problem with German medicine during these years, Celee responds with some horseshit that again proves he doesn't know what he's talking about, I and Sven respond proving him wrong, and this is how Celee responds:

                        Originally posted by Celee
                        your question to me about Nazi Germany had nothing to do about socialism.

                        They can't even keep their own arguments straight within their own heads, and yet they blame others for "tricking them" or trapping them in one-upmanship debate.... All because they can't follow a linear dialogue. It's not a trick honey, you just don't have any freaking clue what you're talking about, your entire worldview is built on soundbites and not facts and you can never just admit you're wrong.

                        How about addressing your ludicrous assertion that forced sterilization was a result of Socialized medicine and that's one reason why you don't want it in the United States, despite forced sterilization being legal here for the last 100 years, the model upon which Nazis founded their programs and ....oh yeah, we still don't have socialized medicine.

                        Your arguments are ridiculous. You are ridiculous.

                        Let all Oz be agreed;
                        I'm Wicked through and through.

                        Comment


                        • and while we are on the subject of Corona vaccines, I want to pre-empt another popular BS that is doing the rounds in the Foxhole and associated media which is that Trump did a "FANTASTIC job" on developing vaccines where in fact, trump has literally NOTHING to do with developing ANY vaccines, nor did his policies or project "warp-speed" have any sort of impact in the global development and subsequent approval of vaccines.

                          The first vaccine to be submitted for approval with the big regulators in Europe and NA was the Pfizer/Bio-N-tech. So called, becasue it was developed by a Pfizer Subsiduary in Germany, under German (or European) regulations and resources. Pfizer received NO US government cash-advance in its development: "The truth is that Pfizer didn’t receive any funding from Operation Warp Speed for the development, clinical trial and manufacturing of the vaccine. Rather, its partner, BioNTech SE, has received money -- from the German government." https://fortune.com/2020/11/09/pfize...speed-germany/

                          the second vaccine out the trap was the Moderna vaccine. Like the Pfizer, this was also a mRNA vaccine and yes, they did receive a lot of funding from the US. They got MONEY. Which is fine but do you really need Operation XYZ to write a cheque? I am unaware of anything else that Operation warpspeed did but I am prepared to be enlighted by anyone on this subject as long as soures are provided.

                          The third vaccine was Astrazeneca, a UK-Swedish company who recieved money from Warpspeed as well as the UK government: "The [UK] government invested early in Oxford University’s team, supporting their vaccine technology since 2016 and their COVID-19 jabs since March 2020 with more than 88 million to help research, develop and manufacture the vaccine.". https://www.gov.uk/government/news/o...zeneca-vaccine I have no doubt that the swedish government also chipped in with a few Kroners of thier own because that's what governments are supposed to do in the middle of a national health crisis.

                          "The Janssen COVID-19 vaccine, or Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine, is a COVID-19 vaccine that was developed by Janssen Vaccines in Leiden, Netherlands, and its Belgian parent company Janssen Pharmaceuticals, a subsidiary of American company Johnson & Johnson." Again, this was developed by Dutch and Belgian companies under European regulation and with European infrastructure and resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janssen_COVID-19_vaccine

                          By this time, I have stopped looking up if J&J have received any money from Warpspeed because I believe my point has been made. Operation Warpspeed was instrumental in MAYBE one of the 4 common vaccines in use today. Take that away, and we still have plenty of vaccines to chose from, not all of which are mRNA vaccines btw (so if mRNA is your beef, there are plenty other options out there).

                          So when Trump goes around and attempts to take credit for the vaccines, then I need to call out that this is (OF COURSE), complete BS. Do you agree?

                          Cheers.
                          Last edited by Svensson; 01-18-2022, 09:50 AM.

                          Comment


                          • I always found it strange the very same people who want us to return to ‘normal’ are the same ones who by promoting anti vaccination, anti mask and other mitigations are prolonging the pandemic.

                            There was a short time at the start of the pandemic when if we had a vaccine and enough people got vaccinated, I think it was over 80% or 90% that covid could have been eradicated. Of course we didn’t have a vaccine, the rest of the world wouldn’t have been vaccinated and we would have the antivax/anti mask cult spreading the disease more rapidly. Now with Delta and now Omicron there is no hope for eradication as their R number is very high. Perhaps the world will learn from this for the next virus, as there will be another, but I very much doubt it.

                            In the meantime, wearing masks, getting vaccinated, and distancing are our best defence.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Svensson View Post
                              But celee, we have been discussing something interesting all along. Namely, how is it possible that someone like you, who by being on Casebook.org in the first place, has at one point in the past shown an interest an appreciation in historical facts and in the adjudication of historical sources became someone who has no connection to reality whatsoever?

                              I mean, when you sit there and type "30,000 health care workers in New York were fired because they refused the vaccine", do you not stop for a second and think "think simply can not be true"? I know why you don't think this can;t be true, it's because you have been systematically been bombarded with bullshit by Fox, OAN, Newsmax and Townhall for god knows how long. They got you right where they wanted which is where your bullshit meter has been broken and they can feed you any old ****. The entire thread is a testament to my hypothesis.

                              On Tucker Carlson, this is not "leftwing nonsense post a source where FOX news says Tucker lies or Tucker admits he lies". these are court filing. You know, put your hand on a bible and you perjure yourself when you lie. what came out of this is

                              Would a reasonable viewer be coming here [to ‘Tucker Carlson Tonight’] and thinking, ‘This is where I’m going to be hearing the news of the day’?” It seems that the judge adjudicated "No" and this was the outcome that the the Fox lawyers wanted.
                              The same article says:
                              "And in an earlier court filing, Murphy referred to “Tucker Carlson Tonight” as “hyperbolic opinion commentary,” not “sober factual reporting.”"

                              Which is exactly the problem that I have been describing.

                              this means, by extension, that Tucker Carlson's use of the VAERS database is suspected to be “hyperbolic opinion commentary,” not “sober factual reporting.”. So the question then becomes: Is it, or is it not? The fact that you are using the VAERS database as data for your argument that 22k or 11k (I really donlt care about the real number in the database) shows the effect that Tucker Carlson has on you. I have provided https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories...what-they-seem which is a blog that discuses the misinformation around the VAERS db, as used by Tucker Carlson, and this goes right to the heart of the matter what we are discussing.

                              And yes, Tucker Carlson is on tape as saying "I lie [sometimes]" unless you want to accuse the tape, a physical object, of having political bias, then this is pretty much the proof you were asking for.
                              Please share the tape of Tucker saying he lies to his viewers? You can not comment on Tucker's story, it is opinion commentary, on VARES because you did not see it. Harvard did a study on VARES, did you read it? You did not even know the database existed until yesterday. Bottom line doctors have reported adverse reactions and death that they believe were caused by the covid vaccine.

                              I guess they are lying. I understand now that the vaccines are 100% safe and effective. I mean Johnson and Johnson, I am sure that is a big lie too. JJ is probably 100% safe too. I am not afraid to admit I am wrong and when things are explained to me, slowly, by someone with a superior intellect I can change my mind, Thank you.

                              I have been wrong about Tucker too. I know the FOX executives did not come out and say Tucker is a lying sack of **** but that is what they really were saying. I was wrong about Hitler's eugenics programs. That never happened complete horseshit. I am also sorry that I was not able to keep up with the intellectual discussion, but what do you expect I am a white, male, and American. I eat meat. I am so ashamed. You asked me a straightforward question about Nazi Germany and I answered the question. I should have understood we really were talking about something else.

                              At the end of the day, you are smarter than me and I am way outmatched. I see that now. Today I am going to get my second jab and I am canceling my subscription to FOX news. I hope you do not mind if I reach out to you from time to time for your discernment. There is so much I do not understand.

                              Thank you

                              PS I was wrong about Trump. Trump bad. I am so glad our life's journey has crossed paths. I am lucky and privileged to correspond with you, buddy.


                              Last edited by celee; 01-18-2022, 10:35 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by celee View Post

                                Please share the tape of Tucker saying he lies to his viewers?
                                Jesus Christ. The video is literally in the first article that Sven linked to you which you claimed you read and then dismissed as being leftwing nonsense. He is literally on video, saying he lies when he's cornered and out of weakness in an article that was given to you not 12 hours ago, and you're here asking for it again. Go back, click on the link that was already given to you, and WATCH FOR YOURSELF.

                                I was wrong about Hitler's eugenics programs. That never happened complete horseshit.
                                Nobody said they never happened, what is being stated and which is factual is that your claim that they are a result of socialized medicine is horseshit. They happened. It had nothing to do with socialized medicine any more than the ongoing Eugenics project in the United states had to do with Socialized medicine. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. You should ask yourself what mental block is just preventing you from grasping it? Brainwashing, maybe?


                                I eat meat. I am so ashamed. You asked me a straightforward question about Nazi Germany and I answered the question. I should have understood we really were talking about something else.
                                He literally quoted your exact words and asked you to expound on your reasonings. How could you NOT have understood the topic? He QUOTED you and asked a follow up.

                                Stop blaming everyone else for your inability to think beyond a blurb. That's your issue, and it's not everyone else's fault you're blinkered and refused to accept basic evidence, even when it's spoonfed to you, because you'd rather cling to your fantasies.

                                You aren't a victim of anything except your own willful obstinance.

                                Let all Oz be agreed;
                                I'm Wicked through and through.

                                Comment

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