Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[Chris Scott]

Hi Errata
I honestly think that we will have to agree to differ as my observations do not tally at all with the sentiments you are expressing. I repeat and emphasise that my problem is not with Muslims as people but with Islam itself. As well as the issues that I, as an atheist, have with any theist system, I am convinced that Islam is uniquely problematic in the modern world, even for those who, like me, do not believe in it, never will believe in it and basically want nothing to do with it.
I honestly believe that a propensity to violence, intolerance, imposition and authoritarianism is in the very DNA of Islam. of course I do not believe for one moment that all Muslims share those characteristics but what I am saying is that for that minority of the faith (and NOT the miniscule number the apologists would have us believe) who seek to use the ways of violence to impose their views on others there is more than enough material in their scripture to sanction their activities. However much apologists may dismiss or rephrase problem passages, it is clear to me that there are parts of the Koran that encourage - or at the very least sanction - the use of violence in the furtherance of the faith, especially against non believers.
There are certain core beliefs in Islam that I find repellent - their attitudes to theocracy and its imposition, apostasy, blasphemy etc. as well as the well publicised treatment of women and homosexuals. As an example the blasphemy law in Pakistan currently enforced is one of the most repulsive pieces of legislation of which I am aware.
So Errata - I will not persuade you and you certainly will not persuade me so I think we'll have to call it a draw!

[The Good Michael]

You're talking about the Falashas. They asked to be airlifted to Israel in the 70s, and many were. I don't believe they were evicted. Much like everyone else there, they wanted to get out of the poverty and strife of Ethiopia. They did, in fact conquer the Aksumites, destroyed many monasteries and sacked the capital city of Aksum. They controlled the northern part of Ethiopia from about 350 -1650 if my memory is correct. It's interesting that these people through connections to Solomon, and through Sheba remained Jewish even when Coptic Christian beliefs were being spread simultaneously in the land.

[DVV]

What happened to the Jews in Worms? What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia? What happened to the Jews in Russia? In Palestine? In Poland?

What makes you think that Muslims have the monopoly on oppression and slaughter of Jews?

I didn't say that all religions are the same. Just that they all have the propensity for and history of violence.

You obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

When I said "Jewish tribes of Medina", I alluded to the fact that the Prophet of Islam himself ordered them to be beheaded (600 hundreds males beheaded the same day, while the women and children were sold as slaves).

See the difference ?
If you don't, I don't care.

Never knew Jesus went to Poland to kill Jews.

You're ignorant and ridiculous.

And what is worse, you have confessed being more or less happy when Copts are killed in their own country. Disgusting.

[DVV]

I honestly think that we will have to agree to differ as my observations do not tally at all with the sentiments you are expressing. I repeat and emphasise that my problem is not with Muslims as people but with Islam itself. As well as the issues that I, as an atheist, have with any theist system, I am convinced that Islam is uniquely problematic in the modern world, even for those who, like me, do not believe in it, never will believe in it and basically want nothing to do with it.
I honestly believe that a propensity to violence, intolerance, imposition and authoritarianism is in the very DNA of Islam. of course I do not believe for one moment that all Muslims share those characteristics but what I am saying is that for that minority of the faith (and NOT the miniscule number the apologists would have us believe) who seek to use the ways of violence to impose their views on others there is more than enough material in their scripture to sanction their activities. However much apologists may dismiss or rephrase problem passages, it is clear to me that there are parts of the Koran that encourage - or at the very least sanction - the use of violence in the furtherance of the faith, especially against non believers.
There are certain core beliefs in Islam that I find repellent - their attitudes to theocracy and its imposition, apostasy, blasphemy etc. as well as the well publicised treatment of women and homosexuals. As an example the blasphemy law in Pakistan currently enforced is one of the most repulsive pieces of legislation of which I am aware.

Agreed again.
And when Khomeiny launched his famous fatwa against Salman Rushdie, he was merely following the example of his Prophet - take the case of Ka'b al-Ashraf, and several others.

[DVV]

You're talking about the Falashas. They asked to be airlifted to Israel in the 70s, and many were. I don't believe they were evicted. Much like everyone else there, they wanted to get out of the poverty and strife of Ethiopia. They did, in fact conquer the Aksumites, destroyed many monasteries and sacked the capital city of Aksum. They controlled the northern part of Ethiopia from about 350 -1650 if my memory is correct. It's interesting that these people through connections to Solomon, and through Sheba remained Jewish even when Coptic Christian beliefs were being spread simultaneously in the land.

Actually, Mike, the origin of the Falashas is still hotly debated. Of course there were Jews in Ethiopia and Yemen in the Aksumite period - but they weren't "falshas". Then, in the 10th century, we have Queen Gudit, who is said to have burnt many churches. But was she pagan or jewish ?
The most likely theory, in my uncertain opinion, is that the people we call Falashas were originally Christians. They would be the result of a sort of christian heresy who, in the Ethiopian context (obsessed with the Old Testament, on the basis of the Salomon/Sheba legend, as you have pointed out), ceased to accept the New Testament.
Fact is that they use the same version of the Bible as Christian Ethiopians and ignore the Talmud.

[The Good Michael]

Actually, Mike, the origin of the Falashas is still hotly debated. Of course there were Jews in Ethiopia and Yemen in the Aksumite period - but they weren't "falshas". Then, in the 10th century, we have Queen Gudit, who is said to have burnt many churches. But was she pagan or jewish ?
The most likely theory, in my uncertain opinion, is that the people we call Falashas were originally Christians. They would be the result of a sort of christian heresy who, in the Ethiopian context (obsessed with the Old Testament, on the basis of the Salomon/Sheba legend, as you have pointed out), ceased to accept the New Testament.
Fact is that they use the same version of the Bible as Christian Ethiopians and ignore the Talmud.

They were called Beetas or Beatas or something. And queen Judit. They were Jews who teamed up with another group of people from what I understand. I had a brilliant conversation with a deacon at the Church of St. Mary there in Addis over such things. Afterwards we had a great meal of Tibbs (my spelling). I just applied for a job there. It would be nice to get back to Egela.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Actually, Mike, the origin of the Falashas is still hotly debated. Of course there were Jews in Ethiopia and Yemen in the Aksumite period - but they weren't "falshas". Then, in the 10th century, we have Queen Gudit, who is said to have burnt many churches. But was she pagan or jewish ?
The most likely theory, in my uncertain opinion, is that the people we call Falashas were originally Christians. They would be the result of a sort of christian heresy who, in the Ethiopian context (obsessed with the Old Testament, on the basis of the Salomon/Sheba legend, as you have pointed out), ceased to accept the New Testament.
Fact is that they use the same version of the Bible as Christian Ethiopians and ignore the Talmud.

They were called Beetas or Beatas or something. Sorry, the Falashas were what Errata was speaking of. I didn't clarify that these were two groups possibly. And queen Judith was Jewish and she teamed up with another group of people from what I understand. Yes this was heretical as well. I had a brilliant conversation with a deacon at the Church of St. Mary there in Addis over such things. Afterwards we had a great meal of Tibbs (my spelling). I just applied for a job there. It would be nice to get back to Egela.

Mike

[Robert]

Are the Falashas the people the Israeli government airlifted a few years ago, and took to Israel? There was some criticism that the Israelis only took the Jews, nobody else. I don't want to get into that - my point is, the Falashas underwent DNA testing and were shown not to be ethnically Jewish. Or am i confusing them with another tribe?

[The Good Michael]

Are the Falashas the people the Israeli government airlifted a few years ago, and took to Israel? There was some criticism that the Israelis only took the Jews, nobody else. I don't want to get into that - my point is, the Falashas underwent DNA testing and were shown not to be ethnically Jewish. Or am i confusing them with another tribe?

That's the group, Robert. I think it's what Errata is referring to. There was an earlier group that clung to legends of Solomon and Sheba called... Beatas(?) as I mentioned. They could be related. They were ethnically Aksumites.

Mike

[DVV]

It would be nice to get back to Egela.
Mike

Oh, so much.

[Robert]

Thanks Mike.

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Mike.

You're welcome. It's all confusing stuff because the oldest books in Ethiopia that discuss such stuff were written only about 500 years ago and in Ge'ez. The languages of Ethiopia of Amharic and Tigryna (sp?) are Semitic which at least shows a common linguistic origin with people of the Middle East. I think the languages came from Ethiopia/Sudan and went north and east because of the antiquity of mankind there, but who knows really? If you try and research anything written by the Beta Israel community, it's all cut and dried that they are a lost tribe. If you ask the Ethiopian Orthodox community, they have their own myths. Half a dozen....

Mike

[DVV]

And queen Judith was Jewish and she teamed up with another group of people from what I understand.
Mike

I don't think so, Mike.
She's become Jewish in some christian traditions, that's true, but the only sources we have told us she was a pagan ruler from the Sidamo region (she led a pagan reaction against "northern christianity"). That we know from the "History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria", but it seems to be confirmed by various muslim/arab sources.
From memory, there is also an Ethiopian muslim source, a chronology in fact, that refers to a pagan queen in southern Ethiopia fin the 11th century, before the conversion of the region to islam.

[DVV]

....and this queen was called "Badit".... hence the Jewish Gudit of later chronicles, perhaps.

[Errata]

You're talking about the Falashas. They asked to be airlifted to Israel in the 70s, and many were. I don't believe they were evicted. Much like everyone else there, they wanted to get out of the poverty and strife of Ethiopia. They did, in fact conquer the Aksumites, destroyed many monasteries and sacked the capital city of Aksum. They controlled the northern part of Ethiopia from about 350 -1650 if my memory is correct. It's interesting that these people through connections to Solomon, and through Sheba remained Jewish even when Coptic Christian beliefs were being spread simultaneously in the land.

Falasha is a derogatory term, in case you were unaware. They call themselves Ezra Elawi I think. I may have spelled it wrong. The Ethiopians here say that they were thrown by a junta, fled to the Sudan, and well, clearly that didn't work out.

They had some street cred for a little while from being the "Lost tribe", but then they found an even more remote community of Jews more likely to be a lost tribe, so that stopped being a point of pride.

Ethiopian Jews are by far the most aggressive Jews I have ever met, and the most.. I don't know... proud? Haughty? It's like stuck up, but it's not a negative thing. It's like that look you're mom gives you when you are doing something stupid you know you shouldn't be doing, and she knows you know, so why the hell are you doing it? kinda thing. The Holocaust is written on the heart of every European Jew, whether they lived through it or not. It's like a shadow, a touch of fear, a little paranoia, a little loss of faith in the goodness of mankind. Like former POWs or survivors of massive natural disasters. Like we're haunted by it. Ethiopian Jews don't have it. They do not tread lightly. The stride boldly into the world whether it's a good idea or not, and I admire that. And maybe a lot of that comes from conquerors instead of conquered. Maybe because life in Ethiopia can be so brutal and so short. And I certainly do not approve of any damage they may have caused through brutality, war and strife. But I will say that their boldness is refreshing, and a lot of what we need as a people.