Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[The Good Michael]

This just in: I suggested a Halloween party for my teachers where we would dress like pirates and go drinking, dining, and dancing. The idea was met with open arms and we will do it. After I brought up the idea, one woman came to me and told me that she couldn't go out with us. The reason is that her husband has suddenly become a devout Muslim and has explained to her that her place is in the home. I tried to advise her, but there is little to say because it is withing her to decide what to do. There is no Sharia law here and she has her choice.

The point is this, of all the religions that I know of, Islam has much more latitude for dipping into the vast dark pits of inequity, bigotry and hatred than others because it has a propensity to want to make things as they were 1500 years ago. Progress is spotty and nearly unnoticeable because they must all think of themselves as brothers and are afraid to voice opinions that might make them condemned. It isn't that bad in America, of course, but when East meets Islam, it's Hell for anyone not on the Mohamed Express.

Mike

[Errata]

There is an ethnic/religious cleansing going on in almost every muslim country. Nobody cares about. Eastern christians are killed, insulted, compelled to flee their own countries.
Better be a Palestinian in Israel than a Christian in Gaza.
But here again, it must be the fault of the Spanish Inquisition.

I am hoping that since the advent of revolution in a lot of these countries that this too shall pass. One of the most powerful images of the Arab Spring was during the protests in Tahrir Square, it was time for Muslim prayers. The Copts formed a protective ring around these prostrate Muslims, to shield them from harm. Later, when there was yet another attack of the Copts (in Alexandria I think) for the first time in a long time there was very vocal outrage from the Muslim community, and demands that the responsible parties be punished. Nationalism trumped religion. It's a crack in the wall. Hopefully it can get widened into a door.

To be brutally honest, and I am not admitting something I am proud of here, I get the tiniest bit of satisfaction that Christians find themselves persecuted. I don't think it's okay. Not even a little. But there is a tiny part of me that thinks "Good. Now you know what it feels like". There is another tiny part of me that wonders where the hell your outrage was when Jews were suffering the exact same fate in these countries, and were left to die. And where is your outrage for those suffering far worse, but not because of their religion, but because of their heritage, or their nationality, or their sex, or their location? I live in the South, and there is a lot of Christianity here that is not benign. And these people act like the way Copts are treated is the worst thing in the history of ever. And it's not. It's bad. Make no mistake. But I don't understand how people can think that a group of people who typically (though not always) are victims of property damage are more deserving of American action than those in the Sudan, who have been literally decimated. Hate is hate. I get it's more personal when it happens to your own kind, but that doesn't make it worse, or more actionable.

That being said, I work with a lot of refugee programs. Kurds, Copts, Sudanese, Jews, homosexuals, albinos. No one deserves that.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Errata!

I cannot help asking you the following question;

What do you feel about that, that both Martin Luther King and the ku-klux-klan justified their actions in the 1960s with The Bible?

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

I
To be brutally honest, and I am not admitting something I am proud of here, I get the tiniest bit of satisfaction that Christians find themselves persecuted. I don't think it's okay. Not even a little. But there is a tiny part of me that thinks "Good. Now you know what it feels like".

You're not brutally honest, but brutally ignorant.
Eastern Christians know what it feels like for centuries.
They have suffered in the Middle Ages, suffered under Sadate, suffered before the Arab Spring.
And for the record, "Copts" means "Egyptian".

[DVV]

Southern Sudanese people also know what it feels like.
Actually, you have so many reasons to be joyful.

[Errata]

I make no secret of the fact that I have many and deep concerns about Islam and its effect in the modern world, particularly in my case its effect on social and political life in the UK. I am not an "Islamophobe" (since that implies an irrational fear - I do not fear Islam nor are my concerns irrational) nor do I subscribe to the methods or message of any groups such as the EDL or the BNP. I can argue my own case, thank you, and do not need to hitch my wagon to any such organisation.

I do not think that Islamic extremists are not "real" Muslims. I understand and acknowledge the violence, the insularism, and the oppression inherent in the Koran. Many Muslims in fact have a lot to answer for. But does Islam? Does Judaism or Christianity? Our books contain very similar content.

A woman in Judaism is unclean one week out of every month, cannot participate in any ritual or service of the religion, must cover her hair. She is the property of men, bartered by men. She has no legal recourse against men, and she pays the price for their abuse of her. If she is sold into prostitution, she will be killed. If she leaves an abusive husband for another man, she will be killed. If she is raped while married, she will be killed. If she is raped before marriage, she must marry her rapist. This is not enlightened stuff. Sharia Law is actually far more feminist. Jews have been commanded to kill the unbelievers, Christians have made quite a name for themselves killing unbelievers (and even believers who were simply written of as "foreign"). Muslims have been commanded to kill unbelievers.

So it's not the Koran that's the problem, because our books are the same, and we don't do that. Nor is it the practice of the religion itself, since I have a good many devout Muslim friends who mean me no harm, and do not feel commanded by their faith to do me harm. I am great friends with a local Imam since we work on a bunch of projects together. We argue about Israel, and it's always from a human rights perspective. This is a guy who grew up in Saudi Arabia, got his religious education in Iran (under the Shah) and has no problem with me or mine. They explain away their archaic laws the same way we explain away ours. In fact, the exact same way, since we compared.

Fundamentalism may be the problem, but maybe not. I have met fundamentalist Muslims, and they aren't fond of me in any way. But I was never offered violence, merely polite requests to not do certain things because I'm contaminated or something. I didn't ask. I have been offered violence by fundamentalist Christians on any number of occasions, some by word, some by deed, some put me in the hospital twice. The irony is that I have been assured by Priests and Ministers that these were not the acts of real Christians, yes they reject the same argument for Muslims. I don't know why. And there are fundamentalist Jews, but they aren't violent, and they don't go back to following all of the laws handed down to Moses. Mainly you never see them, because they are extremely isolated by choice. Now a fundamentalist Christian should be almost the same as a fundamentalist Jew, but they aren't, and I think the reason why is the actual problem. It's all about personal choice. And fear.

People who are ruled by fear adopt adaptations of their religion that justify that fear. A Jew can't really adopt an aspect of Judaism that justifies fear, unless the fear is that of the unknown. Because we are taught pretty early that we have no idea what happens when we die. The righteous are rewarded, we don't don't how they are rewarded, or even what makes a person righteous, because it has never been exclusive to Judaism. And since there hasn't been a smiting in ages, we don't even know if god is still wrathful. The best a Jew can manage is an isolated little society free of the temptations and possible contamination by outsiders to follow the path of righteousness as best they know how. Kind of like a ruder Amish. Zionism by the way, totally different, and not religious.

Fundamentalist Christians are absolutely ruled by fear. And while the New Testament doesn't offer a lot to be afraid of, Early Christianity certainly did. People are afraid of what they don't understand. To the extent that there is common joke amongst my set "I don't understand it! KILL IT!" Fortunately for the redneck southern fundamentalist Christians we have 'round these parts, the things they don't understand and fear have clear solutions in the bible. They are disgusted by, and afraid of homosexuals. But that's okay, because they are an abomination. They are afraid of the power that women hold over them, but that's okay, because the bible says they are the weaker sex who should stay pregnant and in the kitchen. In this particular part of the world, fundamentalist Christians are afraid of Jews. They say we rule the world, they say we control the money, but the truth is that we have the value of education drilled into our heads from day one, and they reject curiosity and advanced education as irrelevant and threatening to the word of god. So we Jews catch a beating "because we killed Jesus" but really because they are threatened by people smarter than they are. They just can't justify beating other Christians who are smarter than they are. Every single thing these nut job Fundamentalist Christians insist on serves no purpose other than to soothe fear, and feel more powerful. They are trying to order their world so that they aren't afraid of their environment, they have control of their environment, and incidentally aren't going to go to hell.

If all Muslims aren't a problem, then Islam isn't the problem. It doesn't allow for violence any more or less than Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, ancestor worship. And if White Muslims aren't a problem, and African Muslims are less of a problem, and Indian Muslims aren't a problem, And Chinese Muslims aren't a problem... If it's Middle Eastern Muslims that are a problem, then it probably has a lot more to do with them being Middle Eastern than Muslims. Middle Easterners face similar problems, have similar histories, similar complaints, been the victims of similar injustices. It's not surprising that their fundamentalism is the same. But in a way, it's very similar to Zionism. The religious aspect of Zionism is that god promised the Jews that particular land. The real motivation of Zionism was that Jews increasingly had nowhere to go, and finally said "if not now, when?" and they went. It was a way to feel safe. But it wasn't a religious movement. Yet Zionists are the most unyielding zealots in all of Judaism. People in the middle east don't feel safe. They feel occupied even when they technically aren't, they are deprived, their "oppressors" have all the wealth, all the power. They are Zionists, they are taking back their own countries. And it's great if part of the Koran supports their actions, but they would do it if it didn't. But, Islam is what they have that we don't. It has to be what makes them superior, because nothing else can.

[DVV]

This absolutely true. In Ethiopia, Muslims were met with open arms and allowed to form communities in this massive Christian country. In Egypt orthodox Christians are hated and despised, and their one opportunity make a little money, through the raising of swine, has been taken from them and the swine slaughtered. In Nigeria, Christians are constantly under attack, dying in droves. In Syria they are also hated. When there are two man-made religions and one is opposed to violence, guess which one wins. More proof that man creates religion to fit his prejudice.

Mike

Well said, Mike.
Whenever I crossed the Red Sea and stayed in Yemen, I was struck by the change. Same stock, but truly another world. A world in which you really have to take care. I've spoken to some educated girls, but I've never seen their face. What a relief when you're back to Addis.

[DVV]

then Islam isn't the problem. It doesn't allow for violence any more or less than Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, ancestor worship.

How can you be that ignorant ?
What happened to the Jewish tribes of Medina, please ?
And by which miracle all religions would say the same thing ? would have the same morality ? etc etc...

[Errata]

One of the things I think every person of faith has a responsibility to do is to examine that faith. We use religion in ways it was not meant to be used, or in ways that are personally destructive. My faith is informed by my religion, but not dictated by it. We need to separate how we use religion from how we follow religion. I can use my religion to fuel a feeling of persecution. With the history of the Jews, that's not hard. But if I follow my religion, then I come away with a certain strength. I can use my religion to justify a hatred of a certain kind of person. But if I follow my religion, I can't. Using religion is like using a hammer. It's a specific tool for a specific problem. Loose nail, use a hammer. Hate homosexuals, use Numbers. Following a religion is like traveling halfway across the world. Yeah there was a loose nail awhile back, but in the grand scheme of everything I have learned, it's okay that there is a loose nail. And if I can look at someone and know that they are using their religion to justify their fear, then I know that I can do the same thing, and I need to make sure I don't. God isn't there to soothe fear. He is there to guide you on a journey of discovery. And discovery ALWAYS generates fear.

[DVV]

Do the rednecks in Southern USA who kill, say, a black man, follow the example of Jesus ?
NO.
Do the muslims who kill Jews follow the example of Muhammad ?
YES.

[The Good Michael]

Well said, Mike.
Whenever I crossed the Red Sea and stayed in Yemen, I was struck by the change. Same stock, but truly another world. A world in which you really have to take care. I've spoken to some educated girls, but I've never seen their face. What a relief when you're back to Addis.

Same stock is right. For those who don't know, Yemen was once part of the Aksumite empire along with what is now Eritrea, part of Sudan, and part of Saudi Arabia. The only similarities left are a bit of language connection and the love for qat. It is no coincidence that these same people who are now Muslim everywhere except in Ethiopia and Eritrea are repressed, irate, and hate the western world, whereas Ethiopians absolutely love it. If Islam didn't exist, it wouldn't be used as such a tool of utter hate. I suppose something else would however.

Mike

[Errata]

How can you be that ignorant ?
What happened to the Jewish tribes of Medina, please ?
And by which miracle all religions would say the same thing ? would have the same morality ? etc etc...

What happened to the Jews in Worms? What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia? What happened to the Jews in Russia? In Palestine? In Poland?

What makes you think that Muslims have the monopoly on oppression and slaughter of Jews?

I didn't say that all religions are the same. Just that they all have the propensity for and history of violence.

[The Good Michael]

What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia?

I can answer this.... much as in Palestine, they created war upon the Ethiopians, killed the leaders and conquered most of the country for quite some time. This was after they were befriended. Ethiopia holds no grudges, however.

Mike

[Errata]

Do the rednecks in Southern USA who kill, say, a black man, follow the example of Jesus ?
NO.
Do the muslims who kill Jews follow the example of Muhammad ?
YES.

Don't be fatuous. A religion is not, and never has been the example of the attendant god or prophet. It is a living thing that adapts and grows. A pope says that Jesus was misquoted, that killing infidels is actually a good thing that will get you into heaven, and that becomes the religion. Nor was Jesus the picture of good behavior all the time. True he didn't kill anyone that we know about, he didn't make war. But he was a considered a collaborator. According to his example, we should let the Jihaadists do whatever they want, and not fight back, not retaliate, not protect our own.

A redneck in the south who kills a Jew is not following the example of Jesus. He is following the example of Jesus's most ardent followers. He is following the religion that Jesus set out, as he sees it.

[Errata]

I can answer this.... much as in Palestine, they created war upon the Ethiopians, killed the leaders and conquered most of the country for quite some time. This was after they were befriended. Ethiopia holds no grudges, however.

Mike

Actually they were evicted about 20 years ago. A good many of them ended up here, which is why we have the most black members of any congregation in the nation. Which was kind of a weird thing when at the age of 11 you walk into synagogue and suddenly there's a bunch of black people when you didn't even know there WERE black Jews.