Dyatlov Pass incident

[Ms Diddles]

Well I finally finished 1079 and I stand by my first comment that whilst the book appears to have been really researched in depth it was certainly ‘hard work’ to say the least. And because it was such heavy going it’s so difficult for a complete newbie to the subject to make an assessment. Even at the end they didn’t give a clear and precise run through of what they thought happened and the ensuing cover-up. I just got hopelessly lost in endless dates, obscure events like committee meetings and this protocol and sheesh! I think it speaks volumes when you can read through a book and not be 100% what the authors are claiming happened and in what order and who did what. Too many geographical locations for me too. For pretty much every page I found myself having to turn back to the map to try and get my bearings. Someone that has lived and breathed this case for thirty years will probably lap this up. But for a general reader I’d say that this book was very poorly written. Nowhere near clear enough.

The theory appears to be, unless Ms D and Barn tell me I’ve got it wrong (and I wouldn’t argue if they did) is that it was down to geological explorations using explosives? An explosive occurred and a tree fell on the tent, some managed to get out but were killed by the weather conditions. The authorities then tried to cover this up by moving the tent to another location so that it didn’t look like an explosion had occurred and that it was simply a natural weather phenomenon?

Im really interested to hear the thoughts of Ms D and Barn on this. Assuming that they haven’t been admitted to a clinic by now.

The theory is possible I guess but to really assess it properly I’d need to read the book again. Probably more than once, plus the data on the website and there’s more chance of Barn going to an England v Scotland game at Hampden wearing an England top and carrying a scarf that said ‘Robert The Bruce Was A W****er,’ than me doing that.

Hahahahaha!

Well done, Herlock!

You've made it through, and I'm not in a clinic (although that was a close fought thing!!).

Yep, that is indeed the theory, but like you I don't feel qualified to give a very coherent assessment of it because I just couldn't get my head round the sources at all.

When the tree suddenly appeared right at the very end, my initial reaction was "where the f@#! did that come from??!!" until I recalled from many longwinded reports earlier, the geologists searching for magnetic anomalies which could indicate the presence of uranium....something about explosions using oxygen....??

I usually dislike being spoon-fed by an author, but in this case I was crying out for a cohesive synopsis explaining all the different facets of the theory, but then the tree fell, the book ended and I was left staring into space and scratching my head.

I honestly don't think that the issue was your (or my) lack of knowledge of the case.

I think it was just that the presentation of the book was completely inpenetrable, and perhaps a lack of familiarity with Soviet era Russia played a part??

That combined with the wonky translation and it was a struggle.

Like I say, I don't feel equipped to really assess the theory except to say that moving the tent and the associated cover up seems rather a labour intensive way of going about things.

It was the middle of nowhere.

Couldn't they have just disappeared the bodies and moved the tent slightly away from the trees?

I also had reservations about the explanation for the bits of clothing found on the hikers in the ravine which had come from clothing worn by the guys found by the cedar tree, but I'm not sure that I picked up on that correctly.

I may try and read that bit again (if I'm feeling masochistic!)

Let's hope Barn or Filby have some more insight!

Wodehouse time, Herlock??

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hahahahaha!

Well done, Herlock!

You've made it through, and I'm not in a clinic (although that was a close fought thing!!).

Yep, that is indeed the theory, but like you I don't feel qualified to give a very coherent assessment of it because I just couldn't get my head round the sources at all.

When the tree suddenly appeared right at the very end, my initial reaction was "where the f@#! did that come from??!!" until I recalled from many longwinded reports earlier, the geologists searching for magnetic anomalies which could indicate the presence of uranium....something about explosions using oxygen....??

I usually dislike being spoon-fed by an author, but in this case I was crying out for a cohesive synopsis explaining all the different facets of the theory, but then the tree fell, the book ended and I was left staring into space and scratching my head.

I honestly don't think that the issue was your (or my) lack of knowledge of the case.

I think it was just that the presentation of the book was completely inpenetrable, and perhaps a lack of familiarity with Soviet era Russia played a part??

That combined with the wonky translation and it was a struggle.

Like I say, I don't feel equipped to really assess the theory except to say that moving the tent and the associated cover up seems rather a labour intensive way of going about things.

It was the middle of nowhere.

Couldn't they have just disappeared the bodies and moved the tent slightly away from the trees?

I also had reservations about the explanation for the bits of clothing found on the hikers in the ravine which had come from clothing worn by the guys found by the cedar tree, but I'm not sure that I picked up on that correctly.

I may try and read that bit again (if I'm feeling masochistic!)

Let's hope Barn or Filby have some more insight!

Wodehouse time, Herlock??

Sorry Ms D, I missed this post. Mind you it’s difficult to keep an eye on other threads when you’re down insane rabbit-holes with Trevor

Im sure that it’s a reasonable theory and who knows, it might be the one, but what a nightmare of a book to digest. Far too much background a far too little on the theory itself. Far too much detail that, as far as I could see, achieved nothing toward the big picture. A real pity. If any book needs a re-write this is it.

Ill be interested to hear what Barn and Filby think. I thought Barn would have finished long before now unless he’s taken a flight over to Russia and is trecking up to the Pass as we speak? He’s Scottish so the cold won’t be an issue. Either that or he’s having trouble typing in a straight jacket.

Ive just had Wodehouse first novel delivered but I’m reading the updated In God’s Name by David Yallop first. I read it years ago. Excellent book btw.

[Ms Diddles]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

A weary and confused Barn reporting in from the pass.

What a bloody slog this book was!

I have read several books on the Dyatlov Pass incident, but none of them really helped me in wading through this book.
I agree with you Miss D, that the tree suddenly popping up a few pages from the end was very, very strange indeed. The only connection to a tree that I can remember being mentioned, was the fact that some pine needles were found on one of the corpses. Not too unusual, you might think on the edge of a forest!

A few thoughts in general.

1. There was clearly some tension within the group, but I am not convinced that any tensions within the group contributed to the tragedy.

2. The terrain was incredibly hostile, the weather conditions were terrible, and the distances covered by the group on a daily basis must have been energy sapping.

3. Russian bureaucracy undoubtedly contributed to the many mistakes made in the search and recovery missions.

4. Before the "magic tree" appeared, my feeling is that all the relevant evidence points to a slow movement of snow, not quite an avalanche, that pushed against the tent forcing the group to cut the tent from inside and clamber out.

Now to the main problems with the book. I was puzzled at first by the very many clumsy mistranslations that litter the book. I was also puzzled that any publisher would agree for a book to be published, presumably after being proof-read several times, with so many examples of strangled english.

I checked who actually published the book............and right there was the answer!
On the last page of the book are the words "Printed in Great Britain by Amazon".
I remembered seeing these words fairly recently in another book which had a very high number of typos and other glaring mistakes.
It was in Rob Clack's excellent book "Jack the Ripper: The Scenes of Crime".

I can only assume that when a book is printed by Amazon, it is "proof-read" by machine!
There can be no other explanation for the many typos etc in both books.
No Proof-Reader worth their salt would let so many errors slip through.

So these are my rambling thoughts on the book.

There is always a weird sense of achievement when you make it to the end of a "difficult" book, and this book is up there with some of the most "difficult" books I have ever tackled. And I confess that if I didn't have fellow travellers who were reading it with me, I may very well have packed it in before finishing it.

Well done fellow travellers! I feel that we have a bond that will never be broken.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

As you know by now Ms D I’m not the easiest person to convince of a cover up. They happen of course but it’s often far too easy to go down that route by being signposted by what are actually simple errors. That said, if any country was going to cover up something like this it would be Soviet Russia.

Couldn’t a falling tree have simply been explained as a result of an extreme wind? How many would they have had to have silenced? The Mansi being the case in point, as you say, of course. These guys are the Sherlock Holmes’s of the region and would have been able to point out the tracks of a bear with a limp. I remember the Aussie backpacker case and the arrest of Bradley Murdoch. Joanna Lees said that she ran into the outback and hid behind a bush which she pointed out to the police who bought in Aborigine trackers. They said that no way had anyone hid behind that bush. So could they have fooled the Mansi or forced them to keep quiet? I don’t know.

The part about the Mansi brothers was totally unclear. A symptom of the entire book. This might be in the running to win the ‘most disappointing book’ award. The research was there. The knowledge was there. But the writing skills were close to non-existent. I’ve read more readable instruction manuals.

Maybe Barn or Filby had better luck but as neither of them were born in Soviet-era Russia as far as we know I doubt it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A weary and confused Barn reporting in from the pass.

What a bloody slog this book was!

I have read several books on the Dyatlov Pass incident, but none of them really helped me in wading through this book.
I agree with you Miss D, that the tree suddenly popping up a few pages from the end was very, very strange indeed. The only connection to a tree that I can remember being mentioned, was the fact that some pine needles were found on one of the corpses. Not too unusual, you might think on the edge of a forest!

A few thoughts in general.

1. There was clearly some tension within the group, but I am not convinced that any tensions within the group contributed to the tragedy.

2. The terrain was incredibly hostile, the weather conditions were terrible, and the distances covered by the group on a daily basis must have been energy sapping.

3. Russian bureaucracy undoubtedly contributed to the many mistakes made in the search and recovery missions.

4. Before the "magic tree" appeared, my feeling is that all the relevant evidence points to a slow movement of snow, not quite an avalanche, that pushed against the tent forcing the group to cut the tent from inside and clamber out.

Now to the main problems with the book. I was puzzled at first by the very many clumsy mistranslations that litter the book. I was also puzzled that any publisher would agree for a book to be published, presumably after being proof-read several times, with so many examples of strangled english.

I checked who actually published the book............and right there was the answer!
On the last page of the book are the words "Printed in Great Britain by Amazon".
I remembered seeing these words fairly recently in another book which had a very high number of typos and other glaring mistakes.
It was in Rob Clack's excellent book "Jack the Ripper: The Scenes of Crime".

I can only assume that when a book is printed by Amazon, it is "proof-read" by machine!
There can be no other explanation for the many typos etc in both books.
No Proof-Reader worth their salt would let so many errors slip through.

So these are my rambling thoughts on the book.

There is always a weird sense of achievement when you make it to the end of a "difficult" book, and this book is up there with some of the most "difficult" books I have ever tackled. And I confess that if I didn't have fellow travellers who were reading it with me, I may very well have packed it in before finishing it.

Well done fellow travellers! I feel that we have a bond that will never be broken.

Talk of the devil and he appears.

100% agree with everything you write Barn. A well researched but close to unreadable book. Why so many good reviews? I can only think that ego might have crept in and that some reviewers didn’t want to appear thick by saying that it wasn’t easy to understand. Well anyone can call me thick because that book wasn’t easy to understand.

A trip to the Dyatlov Pass would seem like a piece of cake compared to reading this book.

Onto my next challenge - Five Go Off In A Caravan by Enid Blyten

[Ms Diddles]

A weary and confused Barn reporting in from the pass.

What a bloody slog this book was!

I have read several books on the Dyatlov Pass incident, but none of them really helped me in wading through this book.
I agree with you Miss D, that the tree suddenly popping up a few pages from the end was very, very strange indeed. The only connection to a tree that I can remember being mentioned, was the fact that some pine needles were found on one of the corpses. Not too unusual, you might think on the edge of a forest!

A few thoughts in general.

1. There was clearly some tension within the group, but I am not convinced that any tensions within the group contributed to the tragedy.

2. The terrain was incredibly hostile, the weather conditions were terrible, and the distances covered by the group on a daily basis must have been energy sapping.

3. Russian bureaucracy undoubtedly contributed to the many mistakes made in the search and recovery missions.

4. Before the "magic tree" appeared, my feeling is that all the relevant evidence points to a slow movement of snow, not quite an avalanche, that pushed against the tent forcing the group to cut the tent from inside and clamber out.

Now to the main problems with the book. I was puzzled at first by the very many clumsy mistranslations that litter the book. I was also puzzled that any publisher would agree for a book to be published, presumably after being proof-read several times, with so many examples of strangled english.

I checked who actually published the book............and right there was the answer!
On the last page of the book are the words "Printed in Great Britain by Amazon".
I remembered seeing these words fairly recently in another book which had a very high number of typos and other glaring mistakes.
It was in Rob Clack's excellent book "Jack the Ripper: The Scenes of Crime".

I can only assume that when a book is printed by Amazon, it is "proof-read" by machine!
There can be no other explanation for the many typos etc in both books.
No Proof-Reader worth their salt would let so many errors slip through.

So these are my rambling thoughts on the book.

There is always a weird sense of achievement when you make it to the end of a "difficult" book, and this book is up there with some of the most "difficult" books I have ever tackled. And I confess that if I didn't have fellow travellers who were reading it with me, I may very well have packed it in before finishing it.

Well done fellow travellers! I feel that we have a bond that will never be broken.

Indeed, Barn!

It is like the three of us have been through a traumatic front-line combat or hostage situation together, and emerged safely blinking into the light with little recollection of what just transpired!

It sounds like we are all very much singing from the same hymn sheet, and I agree with your points above.

I'm also confident that the tensions within the group did not play a significant role in what happened.

I for one will not be reading any more books published by Amazon!!

When I originally saw this book, it appeared to be unavailable in English, so I almost bought it in German!

I fear I would have lost my mind trying to read all that badly translated Soviet and scientific terminology in what is very much my second language these days!

I barely understood it in English!

I actually think that there MIGHT be a fairly credible theory in there somewhere, but I have no way of assessing this as I just can't understand the book enough to follow the theory in enough detail to say.

Did you pick up on any of the Mansi stuff?

I have no idea what that was all about and I'd quite like to know....

Well done though, buddy, you made it through!!!!

Filby - You're our last beacon of hope here. Any idea what that was all about?????

[Abby Normal]

hey guys
sounds like that book was a bunch of bs lol

[Ms Diddles]

As you know by now Ms D I’m not the easiest person to convince of a cover up. They happen of course but it’s often far too easy to go down that route by being signposted by what are actually simple errors. That said, if any country was going to cover up something like this it would be Soviet Russia.

Couldn’t a falling tree have simply been explained as a result of an extreme wind? How many would they have had to have silenced? The Mansi being the case in point, as you say, of course. These guys are the Sherlock Holmes’s of the region and would have been able to point out the tracks of a bear with a limp. I remember the Aussie backpacker case and the arrest of Bradley Murdoch. Joanna Lees said that she ran into the outback and hid behind a bush which she pointed out to the police who bought in Aborigine trackers. They said that no way had anyone hid behind that bush. So could they have fooled the Mansi or forced them to keep quiet? I don’t know.

The part about the Mansi brothers was totally unclear. A symptom of the entire book. This might be in the running to win the ‘most disappointing book’ award. The research was there. The knowledge was there. But the writing skills were close to non-existent. I’ve read more readable instruction manuals.

Maybe Barn or Filby had better luck but as neither of them were born in Soviet-era Russia as far as we know I doubt it.

Yeah, I don't think the Mansi would have been fooled by a staged scene.

Bribed or blackmailed into silence, maybe, but I think they would have read the signs and tumbled to the set up.

Indigenous people who rely on the land always have enormous insight into their environment. They need to have to ensure survival in really hostile environments.

It reminds me a bit of the Franklin expedition where the Inuit pretty much knew the score, but nobody listened to them.

I should really read that Mansi bit yet again, but I just can't face it.....!!

[Ms Diddles]

hey guys
sounds like that book was a bunch of bs lol

Hahahaha!

Unfortunately, I didn't even understand it enough to be able to make that assessment, Abby!!

That would have required some basic comprehension on my part!

[Ms Diddles]

As you know by now Ms D I’m not the easiest person to convince of a cover up. They happen of course but it’s often far too easy to go down that route by being signposted by what are actually simple errors. That said, if any country was going to cover up something like this it would be Soviet Russia.

Couldn’t a falling tree have simply been explained as a result of an extreme wind? How many would they have had to have silenced? The Mansi being the case in point, as you say, of course. These guys are the Sherlock Holmes’s of the region and would have been able to point out the tracks of a bear with a limp. I remember the Aussie backpacker case and the arrest of Bradley Murdoch. Joanna Lees said that she ran into the outback and hid behind a bush which she pointed out to the police who bought in Aborigine trackers. They said that no way had anyone hid behind that bush. So could they have fooled the Mansi or forced them to keep quiet? I don’t know.

The part about the Mansi brothers was totally unclear. A symptom of the entire book. This might be in the running to win the ‘most disappointing book’ award. The research was there. The knowledge was there. But the writing skills were close to non-existent. I’ve read more readable instruction manuals.

Maybe Barn or Filby had better luck but as neither of them were born in Soviet-era Russia as far as we know I doubt it.

Sorry!

Just saw the bit about "couldn't a falling tree be explained as a result of an extreme wind?"

100% agree.

There were blizzards at the time I believe, so that would likely have been the natural assumption (as opposed to geologists with strange oxygen explosions looking for uranium......).

[barnflatwyngarde]

Indeed, Barn!

It is like the three of us have been through a traumatic front-line combat or hostage situation together, and emerged safely blinking into the light with little recollection of what just transpired!

It sounds like we are all very much singing from the same hymn sheet, and I agree with your points above.

I'm also confident that the tensions within the group did not play a significant role in what happened.

I for one will not be reading any more books published by Amazon!!

When I originally saw this book, it appeared to be unavailable in English, so I almost bought it in German!

I fear I would have lost my mind trying to read all that badly translated Soviet and scientific terminology in what is very much my second language these days!

I barely understood it in English!

I actually think that there MIGHT be a fairly credible theory in there somewhere, but I have no way of assessing this as I just can't understand the book enough to follow the theory in enough detail to say.

Did you pick up on any of the Mansi stuff?

I have no idea what that was all about and I'd quite like to know....

Well done though, buddy, you made it through!!!!

Filby - You're our last beacon of hope here. Any idea what that was all about?????

Hi Miss D,

The authors mention the Mansi at regular intervals throughout the book, but with no real suggestion that they were involved.

I do remember the point being made that if they were in any way involved with the deaths, they would simply have refused to help in the search.
Also, what was the motive for the Mansi to attack the group?
It's not as if they were carrying valuables, or plentiful supplies of food and provisions.

After that trial by fire, I'm off to wallow in a"cozy" crime mystery.
I deserve it.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Miss D,

The authors mention the Mansi at regular intervals throughout the book, but with no real suggestion that they were involved.

I do remember the point being made that if they were in any way involved with the deaths, they would simply have refused to help in the search.
Also, what was the motive for the Mansi to attack the group?
It's not as if they were carrying valuables, or plentiful supplies of food and provisions.

After that trial by fire, I'm off to wallow in a"cozy" crime mystery.
I deserve it.

You do indeed deserve it after that, Barn!

Yeah, I don't for a minute think that the Mansi were involved.

I just don't have a clue why the authors included all that stuff about the brothers who were perhaps part of the search, but maybe not.

It sounded like it was revving up towards some conspiracy theory then (if my understanding is correct) went absolutely nowhere.

I was trying to figure out whether that had any relevance to the theory at all.

I'm guessing not.

Puzzling!!!!

[Abby Normal]

Hahahaha!

Unfortunately, I didn't even understand it enough to be able to make that assessment, Abby!!

That would have required some basic comprehension on my part!

it sounds like the time i bought a book that was called the definitive history of Rock and roll. so full of meaningless and obscure details that I couldnt make out what the relevance was, so boring-i only got to the third chapter.
Im not sure how anyone could take such a fascinating subject like the history of rock and roll or the Dyatlov pass mystery and make it so boring and incomprehensible.

Its got to be a special skill.

[barnflatwyngarde]

it sounds like the time i bought a book that was called the definitive history of Rock and roll. so full of meaningless and obscure details that I couldnt make out what the relevance was, so boring-i only got to the third chapter.
Im not sure how anyone could take such a fascinating subject like the history of rock and roll or the Dyatlov pass mystery and make it so boring and incomprehensible.

Its got to be a special skill.

Hi Abby,
No "special skill"involved in relation to the Dyatlov Pass book!
Just the dumb decision to let a computer translate and proof-read it.