Rioting in UK capital

[Heinrich]

Just because the Metropolitan Police failed to protect the Whitechapel victims in 1888 does not mean they cannot protect Londoners today once they have proper numbers on the streets and necessary support.

[Ally]

Ah yes, so nice to know that the good people of England just need to sit tight, and wait for the police to assemble themselves in proper numbers and with proper support and then, eventually, they will be rescued. I mean they only had SIX THOUSAND officers on duty last night, clearly that wasn't enough.

I mean so far it's only been three days of rioting with the police standing there twiddling their thumbs, but I am sure eventually they'll get it together....just sit tight folks. I mean eventually they'll run out of actual buildings to burn anyway, but don't you worry, any minute now the police are going to get it together.

Any minute...

[Supe]

Just because the Metropolitan Police failed to protect the Whitechapel victims in 1888 . . .

Uh, Heinrich, you have rather beaten that horse into insensibility and it might just be seen as a bit insensitive to attempt to score debating points linking the events of 1888 with today, but by golly that one-track mind does seem to go on forever.

. . . and necessary support.

If by that you mean political support you are spot on. And, Ally, I would suggest that what keeps the police, in large part, from "getting it together" is cowardice from politicians. Certainly, the number of police injured to date suggests they have not simply sat back and I suspect that the rank and file (if not the careerists amonmg the officers) would welcome having their fetters undone by the politicians.

Don.

[The Grave Maurice]

What London needs now is a little less of the "Ullo, ullo, what's all this then?" and a little more of the "So long, suckers!"

[mariab]

Indeed, so the cops would need a sprinkler attachment for their water cannons and the water would need to be at a nice warm bath temperature for the poor loves.

Or better yet: fill the water cannons with beer! ;-)

I cannot help but think about the people of Norway and how dignified and calm they were in the face of the most terrible of events and how ugly the behaviour here is by comparison. I am deeply, deeply ashamed.

Norway can't be compared to most places in the world. It's a lot of vast territory whith hardly any population, and a country which was never known to have experienced any political significance. Things are still and will always be a bit idyllic in Norway.

It's happened before - need we all be reminded that 53 persons were killed, during the Los Angeles riots, of 1992; it's happening now; and it will happen again!

Absolutely. It happened in Paris 2 years ago, when about 20% of the local population lost their cars due to them having been burned. Then things calmed down, almost suddenly and randomly. The only visible trace left is built on railings on top of buildings in the Paris banlieus (=the poor immigrant neighborhoods in the outskirts of Paris), so that people can't throw entire fridges at cops anymore. The Paris riots were immigrant-concentrated, and the French immigrants have significantly less legal rights than in the UK.

In the Athens (Greece) riots the majority of the rioters arrested turned out to be rich kids from the upper class, with iPhones in their pockets and Nikes on their feet. One 17 year old got accidentally shot during the riots, and has been declared a “generational hero“, whith minor riots and demonstrations occurring every year on the anniversary of his death.
It's ironic that the French rioters' parents demonstrated against the Vietnam war, the Greek rioters' parents demonstrated against the Greek junta, and they both managed to win their fight. But the next generation seems to equate Rodney King with Martin Luther King.

[Limehouse]

To be fair to the police - on Monday night they were completely outrun in some areas of London. As fast as police were being drafted in to deal with one pocket of hooliganism a pocket would break out elsewhere. With the mobs numbering in their hundreds - it was almost impossible for the police at the forefront to arrest and detain and transport that number of people to cells.

This type of behaviour requires a secondary force such as tear gas or water cannons. I expressed surprised that more tazers were not used but my daughter told me that when used the barbs that are shot into the body need to be removed by a doctor or paramedic and they just cannot be used on large numbers of people who are all moving around swiftly.

[mariab]

Actually, the only policy that would help here is that arrested rioters are forced to pay substantial fines, if necessary via a new law. Being forced to part with money always helps, getting the message through unequivocally. Collecting high fines could also help balance a bit the high cost of all the repairs/insurance costs to be expected for all the damage on property.

[Chris]

Thankfully there seems to have been no trouble to speak of last night in London, though there were some serious incidents in Manchester, the West Midlands and elsewhere.

By the way, thanks to the overseas armchair police commissioners for providing us with some light entertainment with their comments, at an otherwise depressing time.

[brummie]

Reports this morning of three people killed in Winson Green, Birmingham when a car was driven into them while they were protecting their businesses and community. Expect to see more groups of local people uniting to protect their areas from the ferral scum looking for an easy target,hope it doesn't lead to more extreme vigilantism.

[Limehouse]

Actually, the only policy that would help here is that arrested rioters are forced to pay substantial fines, if necessary via a new law. Being forced to part with money always helps, getting the message through unequivocally. Collecting high fines could also help balance a bit the high cost of all the repairs/insurance costs to be expected for all the damage on property.

A good idea in theory - but many of these people are unemployed and will either not pay the fine or will go out and commit more crimes in order to pay the fine.

They should certainly be made to help put right the destruction they have caused and should serve tough community sentences during the day and then be returned to prison overnight. They should have their personal possessions confiscated (phones, Playstations, Xboxes, TVs etc) and returned when they have paid a reasonable debt to society.

[jason_c]

A good idea in theory - but many of these people are unemployed and will either not pay the fine or will go out and commit more crimes in order to pay the fine.

They should certainly be made to help put right the destruction they have caused and should serve tough community sentences during the day and then be returned to prison overnight. They should have their personal possessions confiscated (phones, Playstations, Xboxes, TVs etc) and returned when they have paid a reasonable debt to society.

Interesting point. For the supposed underclass half of these looters will own a Blackberry.

[mariab]

A good idea in theory - but many of these people are unemployed and will either not pay the fine or will go out and commit more crimes in order to pay the fine.

Interesting point. For the supposed underclass half of these looters will own a Blackberry.

Precisely, Jason. “Unemployed“, but able to afford a Blackberry – often with mom's and dad's scrillo.

[brummie]

Posh boy Cameron statements on Wednsday morning:

CAMERON:Nothing is off the table. There are contingency plans for water cannon to be used at 24 hours notice.

So if the rioters/looters can be persuaded to hang around for 24 hours the water canon will arrive maybe!! What planet is Cameron on.

CAMERON:There is evidence that a more robust approach to policing in London resulted in a quieter night in the capital

But 3 people died in Birmingham, Manchester city centre wrecked, riots in Liverpool, Leicester.... Obviously these are not important if they're not in London they don't count.

CAMERON:On police funding: We won't do anything that will reduce the amount of visible policing on our streets.

So all the swingeing cuts in police budgets and warnings from cheif constables of manpower cuts was all a joke then?

Shoild have stayed on holiday taking photo opportunities with Italian waitresses because our PM is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when you need leadership!

[Limehouse]

Posh boy Cameron statements on Wednsday morning:

CAMERON:Nothing is off the table. There are contingency plans for water cannon to be used at 24 hours notice.

So if the rioters/looters can be persuaded to hang around for 24 hours the water canon will arrive maybe!! What planet is Cameron on.

CAMERON:There is evidence that a more robust approach to policing in London resulted in a quieter night in the capital

But 3 people died in Birmingham, Manchester city centre wrecked, riots in Liverpool, Leicester.... Obviously these are not important if they're not in London they don't count.

CAMERON:On police funding: We won't do anything that will reduce the amount of visible policing on our streets.

So all the swingeing cuts in police budgets and warnings from cheif constables of manpower cuts was all a joke then?

Shoild have stayed on holiday taking photo opportunities with Italian waitresses because our PM is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when you need leadership!

Brilliant post brummie. Yes, the police cuts do not exactly encourage the police to get out there and put their health and lives on the line when their pensions and jobs are under threat. Also, holding back a bit to let the riot take its course kind of shows those making the cuts how important these front line jobs are and what happens when cuts are made.

I had the same feelings as you about politicians facing the cameras and making a big noise about what a terrible situation it is and how they are going to punish those responsible harshly. Everyone knows Cameron is a multi-millionaire and could never understand what its like to live in one of these communities, and could never understand how it feels to be the bottom of the pile. The same can be said for Teresa May and the appalling Boris. Please don't put them in front of the cameras. Get some youth workers or some influential young people who can get the message across that what's going on is wrong and will only hurt damaged communities even further.

[Chris]

Don't forget the appalling Nick Clegg, who nearly provoked a riot himself when he visited Birmingham:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8691673/Nick-Clegg-booed-on-Birmingham-riot-tour.html