Rioting in UK capital

[Chris]

Oh god. All you have to say is 'black' and people jump to the racist conclusion.
...colour or race isn't the issue here

Oh, please! Race isn't the issue?

What you said was "If the black sections of this country don't think they're getting a fair crack of the whip in this country, then why don't they just **** off to Africa or Jamaica ..."

[John Bennett]

It's 'gangsta' culture, that's what it is. It's revolting and it doesn't matter what colour or creed participate in it, it's negative, opportunistic, selfish and in its worst manifestation, violent or even lethal.

I've seen it first hand in schools of all places. It's one of the reasons I left the teaching profession. Self-righteous kids who think they're untouchable because they have 'rights' or a posse of bully boys who are willing to go to extreme lengths to exact retribution for the most pointless of transgressions.

It's mob violence, safety in numbers cowardly crap. We now see how out of control it can be - this is not just people avoiding dodgy areas at night any more, this is coming to a town near you. You have no choice but be subjected to the results of their criminal mindset.

The government needs to get VERY tough now. And it shouldn't be seen as containing/inflaming a political struggle or principle because there isn't one to opress. It's stopping extreme criminality. These kids and those that tag along with it are now - just because they feel they can - wantonly destroying or communities and OUR rights to be able to just go about our lives.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Oh, please! Race isn't the issue?

What you said was "If the black sections of this country don't think they're getting a fair crack of the whip in this country, then why don't they just **** off to Africa or Jamaica ..."

Just a little experiment of mine to see which of you would jump in with the 'racist' tag. It took all of 2 minutes. I'm sat here laughing my head off at the attempt to swerve the issue and move it along towards racism. You're far too quick to react for your own good - like a robot who hears the words black and crime and instantly shouts 'racism'. Brainwashed, mate. And, of course, you've edited my previous post and conveniently left out the 'white, black, whatever' comment.

Look, these kids are black, and they're smashing the place up. Our justice system needs to deal with them harshly, and in an ideal world, yes, they would be shipped out of the country and left to fend for themselves. Racist? No. A proposed solution to the problem of lawlessness? Yes. Ultimately, you forfeit your privileges when you break the law, and in the event the only method for stopping this wanton, casual violence is to forfeit the privilege of living here, then I for one would support it. For clarity, for the second time, that includes offenders of any racial or religious persuasion.

I know, I know. We're not supposed to say some black people commit crime. And we're not supposed to blame them; the fault lies with law abiding citizens for not giving them opportunity.

Spare me, because quite frankly I'm sick to the back teeth of excuses, abdicating responsibility and attempting to swerve the discussion by moving it along toward racism.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Firstly - how on earth can you say the left is 'holding court?' Do we have a left-wing government in power? I don't think so! This is NOTHING to do with the left - or the right for that matter.

Secondly - why do you single out black people ? Did you see the TV reports? There were white and black involved.

This is a case of outrageous public disorder that needs to be dealt with for what it is - violence, thuggery and theft.

I agree with Phil - let's have a curfew and let's get some tropps on the streets with water cannons - just until things calm down.

The vast majority are black. The areas going up are predominantly black communities, e.g. Tottenham, St Pauls in Bristol.

Do you agree?

[caz]

What a night!

We are all safe here so far, although I was nervously waiting for my daughter to confirm she had arrived safely at work at Imperial College, after her bus and tube journey from her home in Peckham.

The saddest news for me so far is that they burned Reeves furniture store to the ground. It was an old Croydon family business going back 150 years and the staff were always very friendly and helpful. The area is actually called Reeves Corner and opposite is Croydon parish church, with my daughter's old school, Old Palace, close by, parts of which date back to Norman and Tudor times and are very vulnerable to fire.

Very frightening seeing on the tv news all the flames coming from the Reeves building and no firemen in sight. It's a miracle that nobody appears to have been killed or badly burned yet. Many of the shops that were looted and torched would have had residential flats (apartments) above them.

Riots here tend to happen in high summer (whether it's football hooligans or 'disadvantaged' youngsters) when it's hot and the teenagers are off school and bored and looking for kicks. They all seem to have Blackberrys to communicate their intentions and stir things up, so I think it's more about media-induced resentment and envy than real poverty or deprivation. They see so many truly awful and untalented 'celebs' flaunting what seems like easily acquired wealth and designer gear and they want the same for themselves and think they can break the law to get it. Sadly they were proved right last night.

I'm hoping for heavy rain - they don't like getting wet!

Forget the water cannons, apparently they are all still in Northern Ireland and the cops here would need special training before using them anyway. They are already stretched to breaking point. And our soldiers (in case anyone has just woken up) are enjoying a long and lazy holiday in more Eastern climes, getting blown up by roadside bombs and coming home via Royal Wootton Bassett.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris]

And, of course, you've edited my previous post and conveniently left out the 'white, black, whatever' comment.

I did no such thing. There was no reference to 'white, black, whatever' in the post I quoted. That was in a subsequent post.

You're the one who introduced the issue of racism into this discussion. No one else.

[caz]

Here we are:

http://tiny.cc/107im

Can I just make it clear that I am not 'cazza2808' who made the off colour comment below the news story!

Love,

Caz
X

[Sister Hyde]

I've seen it first hand in schools of all places. It's one of the reasons I left the teaching profession. Self-righteous kids who think they're untouchable because they have 'rights' or a posse of bully boys who are willing to go to extreme lengths to exact retribution for the most pointless of transgressions.

that is not just the "gansta culture", it all starts with the "king child" culture of western european countries, and that disgusts me more than a bunch of immigrant kids enjoying their freedom a bit too much.
Kids, from wealthy families, well educated, very often who manage to get a good job thanks to their relatives despite their ungratitude and the useless years they've spent in school lazying, and who behave worst than the rest while they've actually always been privileged.
Some 10 years ago they did a VERY interesting experiment on that kind of kids, instead of sending them to juvenile, they dropped them in the middle of Finland's icy no mans land with nothing else than a sleeping bag a the strict minimum tin cuttlery and gobelet, like "so... you guys always brag about being adult??mature?? and handling whatever? you wanna play tough?? There you go, enjoy being responsible for finding something to eat on a daily base for yourself and not freezing to death!!"... Well, it didn't take them long to cry for their mamma and wish for a stuffed bear, cartoons and a hot cocoa. Maybe that can be a good idea to follow for teaching professions

[Robert]

Caz, I think you'll find that if it rains on them, it would be a violation of their human rights.

[Limehouse]

It's 'gangsta' culture, that's what it is. It's revolting and it doesn't matter what colour or creed participate in it, it's negative, opportunistic, selfish and in its worst manifestation, violent or even lethal.

I've seen it first hand in schools of all places. It's one of the reasons I left the teaching profession. Self-righteous kids who think they're untouchable because they have 'rights' or a posse of bully boys who are willing to go to extreme lengths to exact retribution for the most pointless of transgressions.

It's mob violence, safety in numbers cowardly crap. We now see how out of control it can be - this is not just people avoiding dodgy areas at night any more, this is coming to a town near you. You have no choice but be subjected to the results of their criminal mindset.

The government needs to get VERY tough now. And it shouldn't be seen as containing/inflaming a political struggle or principle because there isn't one to opress. It's stopping extreme criminality. These kids and those that tag along with it are now - just because they feel they can - wantonly destroying or communities and OUR rights to be able to just go about our lives.

Great points John. I agree totally.

[Robert]

I totally sympathise with any teachers who have to teach this scum. I can understand if they leave the profession. However, I seem to remember that teachers were at the forefront of the campaign to outlaw corporal punishment in schools. One popular line went : "If I needed the threat of the cane to get a class's attention, then I wouldn't be a very good teacher." Several years down the line and some of the teachers are demanding police protection.

You cannot have a society without discipline - preferably self-discipline, but if that fails, then external discipline.

[Limehouse]

The vast majority are black. The areas going up are predominantly black communities, e.g. Tottenham, St Pauls in Bristol.

Do you agree?

I agree that Tottenham has many black residents. I can't speak for the other areas you mention as I am not familiar with them but I believe they do have a sizeable black population.

However - I do not agree that the vast majority of rioters are black. How can you know that unless you were present during every outbreak? I saw both black and white youths involved in disorder on the news reports I saw.

With reference to your other points, how can you ship British people out of the country? Where would you send them? Who would accept them?

We have to deal with the situation. If they are British citizens then it's Britain's problem. We have laws to deal with arson, theft, violence, violent disorder etc. We need to bring the culprits to justice - certainly - but we also have to deal with the causes and it's nothing to do with being black or white.

[caz]

Caz, I think you'll find that if it rains on them, it would be a violation of their human rights.

Indeed, so the cops would need a sprinkler attachment for their water cannons and the water would need to be at a nice warm bath temperature for the poor loves.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...it's nothing to do with being black or white.

It's all to do with being young and not having the sense to want to be an individual.

Immature copycats all; determined criminals very few I'd wager.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

The areas affected are predominantly black communities.

In terms of shipping them out of the country, yes, it's an ideal that has no basis in reality.

Having said that, we need to find a way to stop this, and if it takes harsh punishment and them learning the hard way, then I'm afraid that's what it should be; and it follows that liberal idealism is not the solution to this problem.