SlutWalks

[cappuccina]

Errata said: "Parents of daughters: you raise them to be polite. They have been told by teachers and adults all their lives that screaming is rude, it is unnecessary, that girls should be quiet, should be meek. By the time they hit 10 or 11, they don't know how to do it anymore. My fiance's niece is 10, and I am teaching her how to scream again, and her mother and grandmother HATE it. They think it's unnecessary. God I hope so, But that kid is going to be able to shriek like an air raid siren if she ever has to..."

That's a great start, Errata, but it's not quite enough. Most girls sound like they are whining, don't really know how to yell, and can be overpowered again and made to stop anyway. Hopefully your niece does a sport or a physical activity of some type that serves to increase her confidence. I don't care what it is, as long as she likes doing it. Statistics show that the girls who get into the most trouble in middle and high school are the least occupied, so their activities become "getting into trouble" and putting themselves in very bad or dangerous situations with much higher statistical probabilities of being harmed.

What my daughter knows is how to "take care of business" in two very important ways:

1. She knows what situations to steer clear of and common "red flags" to avoid. Now, this isn't foolproof, BUT...she knows not to walk or bike alone, or to EVER go off with a group of men on her own (or to get in someone's car) with the exception of the male athletic teams she is on...and

2. She is athletic and physicially trained to the degree that she could seriously "upend" just about anyone who bothered or was untoward towards her. Now, it helps that she is 6 feet tall and an athlete, but....she also walks with confidence and will meet anyone's gaze. If she were to look at you, you would be the one to end up looking down, not her. Yes, I realize her height and strength is unusual, but the confidence/assertiveness thing applies to ALL women.

3. She speaks in very clear, even, measured tones, with an excellent vocabulary. She sounds intelligent and busnesslike, but can quickly "up the ante" if she needs to. Sounding like Marilyn Monroe in one of her movie roles doesn't help anyone, really...and women do need to be taught to actually yell for help...Body english is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. The couple of times my daughter has felt threatened by male classmates she walked towards them, looking right at them while stating that they had better back down and what was going to happen if they didn't in the loudest voice she could. Is this easy? No, but it is very effective.

4. My daughter doesn't drink, smoke anything or do drugs....not only because it flies in the face of what she is trying to accomplish physically, but because she said that these things make people, especially women vulnerable. She refuses to lose control from these substances, so she does not do them. For her, it is a public health/safety argument, not a moral/religious one, just to make that clear...

5. The rules of the game change completely if the person going after you is armed with deady force, BTW. IOW, my daughter is smart enough to realize that you do not "get in the face" of a person pointing a gun at you.

She manages to do this without compromising her femininity...For whatever reason, the media has decided that femininity = "crack waif" as I stated earlier... My daughter refuses to buy into that definition...

[Errata]

Ally, I know. The world is full of people who blame themselves for things they know weren't their fault. But still the voice in the night comes "if only." Sometimes it comes in the day too. I suppose what I said to Errata will be water off a duck's back but I thought I'd say it anyway.

You are both very sweet. And you are right. I am not to blame for what they did. I have some responsibility for them being free to do it, but that is different. The ones who came after never blamed me, just as I never blamed the four who came before. In a way it's like watching someone drown because you can't swim. Of course it isn't your fault, but you feel like there ought to have been a way. I was 13. I was not remotely equipped to deal with what I went through. I could not have gotten them convicted. I was SO screwed up.

And I feel like the person who prevented me from saving them was that stupid security guard, who was a fan of their football team, who told me that if they were going to rape someone, it would have been someone prettier than me. That they could have anyone they wanted, there's no way they would force me of all people. And I threw up on him. Which he deserved. I used to have violent dreams about him. I settled for getting him fired 8 years afterwards.

There was a pack of six football players with me. I found out later that the leader's mother found out about one of them a year before he graduated college, and she literally beat the rest out of him with a cast iron skillet Tied him to a chair and called the cops on him while he was pleading with his dad to let him go, and evidently his dad just continued reading the newspaper. His mom was a lawyer and got the case files from the police and started tracking us down. I got a call from her about a year later, and she told me that the statute of limitations had run out in the state that I had been raped in (I had the unique judicial experience of having been raped by citizens of my own state in a whole other state). But because the crime took place in a different state, I could lodge a complaint in that state, and be able to testify as a previous victim here in state. I declined. She offered to pay for a hotel and airline tickets to come to the trial if I wanted, and make a victim impact statement, I declined that as well.

I did send her two photos. One taken the day after her first phone call, and one taken the day before the rape. When she called back she was devastated at the difference, and offered to pay for counseling, but I got it for free anyway so I declined that too. She took the rest of his college tuition to pay for it, but by this time I knew that one of his victims had to have an emergency hysterectomy, so I told her to give it to that girl. for 6 of us, the statute of limitations had run out. Of the six of us, only two of us had ever learned any of their names. Her son got 16 years on two counts of rape and one count of aggravated assault. Two counts were dismissed because the girls couldn't identify them, Three counts were dismissed because the victims refused to make a statement. The other victims were never located. His sidekick got the same, two of the guys cut deals for 2 years to testify against the first two, one of them never was identified by any of us. One of the perks of being completely unremarkable I guess.

The last one never participated in the rapes. He got 16 months for 4 counts of simple assault. I remembered him vividly. He held my head down, but turned it to the side so I could vomit without choking. He was the one who gave me my clothes back after it was over, helped me stand, and get dressed. He brought me water, and made sure I was mobile before running off. I still have no idea what was going on with him. He didn't testify against the others, but he clearly was not okay with what they had done. He hadn't even been at the time. But he was there for the other 11 rapes, doing the same thing he did with me. And he never said a word, not when I was 13, not for the trials. For awhile I thought he was there just to make sure his friends didn't kill us, but then why wouldn't he say something?

He is the only one I have ever been even remotely interested in what was going on in his head. I know what was going on with the others. I don't understand him at all. I never will. The two leaders will be out soon, unless they kill a man in jail or something. They and the two who copped a plea have to register as sex offenders. As I am not registered as a victim, the state will not notify me when they get out, but one of the girls who is registered gets in touch with us fairly regularly, so she will let the rest of us know. A few of them are afraid that these guys will show up at their door or something. I'm not. Let them come if they are that stupid. I'm not 13 anymore. And while I am a rape victim, I am not THEIR victim. Haven't been for awhile. Quite frankly, they didn't get enough fun out of me to have been worth making me this strong. They don't know that, but I sure as hell do.

I haven't heard back from the leaders mother since the trial. I have no need or desire to. But on a happy note, she has facilitated (and paid for) the adoption of two babies for the victim who had the hysterectomy. I'm not into babies or anything, but they're up there in cuteness for things that poop on you.

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Errata

On another thread I said 'I think you're great' and here you've proved me right.

Edited to say that the lawyer mother of one of these b*stards is/was a very fine lady.

[Limehouse]

I'm beginning to think there is something very wrong with a couple of you. Which is fine. Statistically likely even. Just disconcerting.

Limehouse: while I appreciate your sentiment, there is something of a pet peeve of mine in being called "brave".

First of all, I'm not brave. If I was brave, I would have persisted in telling people until someone believed me. As it stands, that little gang of football players had 4 victims before me, and 11 after. I was the youngest, the oldest was 19 or 20, and they damaged one girl so badly she had to have an emergency hysterectomy at the age of 17. That's partly on me. I am absolutely not to blame for getting raped. I am to blame for the 11 girls after me, because I was too weak to save them.

But my actual pet peeve is the feeling that rape victims telling their story are brave for saying it out loud. Sure it can be painful. But no one says that about car jacking victims, or mugging victims, or even identity theft victims. The implication of "brave" in the case of rape victims talking for many people (I am not including you in this) is that they think to themselves "wow she is so brave for talking about it. I don't know if I could, I would be so embarrassed". I've had many people even say that too my face.

And I always ask myself, why on earth would I be embarrassed? What do I have to be ashamed of? That at the age of 13 i didn't have the strength to fight off six college football players? I'm 33 and I couldn't do that now. My fiance couldn't do that now. That I didn't see it coming? Actually, I did, I was just trapped. That people had sex with me without my consent? That's not my fault. That I was no longer a virgin at the age of 13? Also not my fault.

I was never embarrassed, and I was barely ashamed even at the time. I just didn't think I would be believed. Mostly because of that jackass security guard who said that clearly it was consensual, because I didn't scream. And I didn't. And if anyone here is a parent to daughters, you make sure they feel comfortable screaming their guts out. I didn't. I swear to god, and to this day I can't figure this one out, I didn't scream because it was rude. Like there was some more polite way of getting across the fact that I was in distress. And I said this once to several other rape victims, and they said the same thing. They didn't scream because they simply didn't know how. Do I just scream, Do I scream words? Do I scream for help? Can I even scream? I've never really done it before. Should I try something else less aggressive first?

Parents of daughters: you raise them to be polite. They have been told by teachers and adults all their lives that screaming is rude, it is unnecessary, that girls should be quiet, should be meek. By the time they hit 10 or 11, they don't know how to do it anymore. My fiance's niece is 10, and I am teaching her how to scream again, and her mother and grandmother HATE it. They think it's unnecessary. God I hope so, But that kid is going to be able to shriek like an air raid siren if she ever has to.

Hi Errata

I understand completely your peeve and thanks for pointing it out.

I do hope though - that in describing your experience and allowing contributors to read it - those who have stated women are in ANY WAY responsible for the actions of men who attacked them - will think again.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Errata for taking the time to share this horrific experience .One thing is certain you are very strong now and that is terrific.
I too had an experience of horrific abuse when I was four years old.I went into the park opposite my house with my second hand but newly painted tricycle that my dad had done up for me.I was playing with three little boys around the same age from next door but one who didn't have tricycles .I was showing it off and letting each have a go on it, when a man and a woman approached us.complimented me on my tricycle and they offered us some sweets-which each of us took .While there was this kerfuffle with the bike going on the man,very sweetly asked me if I would like to see some rabbits.I remember thinking it strange that there were rabbits in the park as I had never seen any before.Well he took me into the bushes,lifted me up and dry raped me.Then he lay me down and sat on me jerking himself up and down until I could barely breathe- to this day I have problems thinking I am suffocating in stressful situations.He let me go---thankfully and I knew I was lucky to be free.I saw my mother over the road and dared not tell her because she had told me never to take sweets from strangers.
Nightmares followed and bedwetting.And it happened again about four or five months later---this time the b*st*rd was lurking round an allotment where I had gone to buy lettuces at the back of my friends house.But I was with another little friend this time and he was as terrified as I was and the police were contacted immediately we got back.I wrongly identified one man---which I will never forget -----.They never caught the man----or his mother.But I put him in a sack,tied him up and drowned him in the River Mersey long ago in my imagination and since I drowned him and since then the scars started to heal.But it took a long long time and gave me psychological grief for many years.And I would not say all the scars disappeared but once I had punished him they began to fade.
I am a mother and I was very overprotective of my daughter when she was little.Thankfully she never experienced anything like that.


Norma

btw I was wearing a dress that came just above the knees.

[Bob Hinton]

and finally............

It never fails to amaze me how shrill and unpleasant certain people get when they feel everyone does not agree with them.

My original post, No 46, states my position very clearly. I believe it is everyone’s responsibility to take every precaution to ensure their safety – in other words – be careful.

My position on this matter has not changed, and yet I have been accused of being a rapist, supporting rapists, a bigot, a sexist and strangely enough racist (no I’m not quite sure where that came from either!) The point is why do some people suddenly become so vitriolic when being advised to take care?

The vicious bullying methods used by these people leave me wondering what on earth motivates them? They make ludicrous statements which when proved to be incorrect they, or their cohorts, deny that was what they meant. I predicted as such and my predictions have come true.

I would urge these people to save your fingers, I do not respond to threats or bullies, I am not afraid of your words – I am not afraid of you.

What does scare me is that people who apparently are allowed to wander around unaccompanied can behave in such an appalling manner.

I would like to thank others for all the emails I have received in support of my view – I quite understand why you would not wish to lay yourself open to such vicious, pernicious attacks on the board.

Who was it who said “When the unintelligent and socially challenged find their arguments are without merit, they resort to violence – both verbal and actual”.

Hear hear!

[Limehouse]

It never fails to amaze me how shrill and unpleasant certain people get when they feel everyone does not agree with them.

My original post, No 46, states my position very clearly. I believe it is everyone’s responsibility to take every precaution to ensure their safety – in other words – be careful.

My position on this matter has not changed, and yet I have been accused of being a rapist, supporting rapists, a bigot, a sexist and strangely enough racist (no I’m not quite sure where that came from either!) The point is why do some people suddenly become so vitriolic when being advised to take care?

The vicious bullying methods used by these people leave me wondering what on earth motivates them? They make ludicrous statements which when proved to be incorrect they, or their cohorts, deny that was what they meant. I predicted as such and my predictions have come true.

I would urge these people to save your fingers, I do not respond to threats or bullies, I am not afraid of your words – I am not afraid of you.

What does scare me is that people who apparently are allowed to wander around unaccompanied can behave in such an appalling manner.

I would like to thank others for all the emails I have received in support of my view – I quite understand why you would not wish to lay yourself open to such vicious, pernicious attacks on the board.

Who was it who said “When the unintelligent and socially challenged find their arguments are without merit, they resort to violence – both verbal and actual”.

Hear hear!

For goodness sake! Do you have to be so self-obsessed? Can you not connect with any of the testimonies and experiences people have posted and connect with them even a little bit?

Why do you have to sound so pompous and self-satisfied? We all know there's another side to you Bob so for crying out loud let your guard down a bit and show some empathy!

[Ally]

My position on this matter has not changed, and yet I have been accused of being a rapist, supporting rapists, a bigot, a sexist and strangely enough racist (no I’m not quite sure where that came from either!) The point is why do some people suddenly become so vitriolic when being advised to take care?

Way to misread, misquote and misconstrue what was actually said. A) you weren't called a racist and B) you weren't just advising people to take care, you were saying that if they dressed in a way that you deemed inappropriate they bore some responsibility for being raped for not taking appropriate precautions. There is no taking care when it comes to dressing so as to prevent rape. There is no wardrobe that one can wear that would prevent rape. There is no sartorial notice-me-not that woman can don to prevent rape. It doesn't exist, you know it doesn't exist and attempting to say you are only trying to tell women to use some prevention and not dress like sluts implies that not dressing like sluts would actually prevent rape. Which is pure, utter bollocks.

And you have been rightly called on it. You have said that no one would castigate the police officer if he told women not to wear their nice jewelry in a bad part of town. Ah. Interesting you qualified that with "a bad part of town". Shouldn't it be, no one should be allowed to wear nice jewelry at all, at any time, because to do so would be flashing and showing off and inviting themselves to be robbed? A thief can be lurking on any corner. So it is incumbent upon us to never wear jewelry at all or carry money at all. Except we don't say that, do we. We say, don't wear jewelry in a "bad part of town" What precisely is the "bad part of town" when it comes to rape? What part of town is a woman allowed to wear her "jewelry" and show off when it comes to rape?

A thief can be anywhere. So can a rapist. But if a woman's robbed of her jewelry while coming out of the Met on an opening night, no one points a finger and goes..ah your fault for showing off those jewels when there could have been thieves lying about.

Why do you become so indignant when women refuse to share the blame you've decided is your right to assign to them? Did you expect the girls to just roll over and be good and quiet while you gave them a good talking to?

There was a phrase I encouraged women to learn to use without regret or ..what was that again?

And you can get all the letters of support from like-minded individuals you like, it doesn't make you right and it doesn't make them anything but cowards for letting you bear the brunt of your shared misogyny.

I have no problem saying women should be careful and take precautions. Unless they are playing hockey, their wardrobe has nothing to do with being careful or taking precautions.

[Robert]

Sixteen years seems way too low, but there you go.

[Errata]

She manages to do this without compromising her femininity...For whatever reason, the media has decided that femininity = "crack waif" as I stated earlier... My daughter refuses to buy into that definition...

I am desperately trying to change that girl's ideas of femininity, but that is a looong battle.

Her mother had her quite young. Her mom had been sexually assaulted a few years earlier, and to this day has not dealt with it in any sort of healthy manner. She became a drug addict and a stripper, and only sees her worth in the sexual attraction of men. She lost custody of her daughter to her mother after about 2 years. My future mother in law is a very nice lady, and pretty well adjusted, but she's tired all the time and isn't really trying that hard with her granddaughter. She hasn't even gotten around to insisting that the kid eat something other than peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

This little girl worships her mother. Copies her at every turn. And I can't blame her, she's trying to make her mother like her more, even though her mom really does adore her. But she thinks her mom gave her away, and it's created a mess. Her mom has cleaned herself up, is back in school and has a real job, but she still only sees herself in the eyes of men, and I am trying very hard to make sure that this kid doesn't do the same. But I've watched her sexualize herself since the age of 7, and I'm fighting a losing battle here. Her behavior is going to cause her problems later on in life. I mean, she adores me and her uncle, but we can't drown out her hero worship for her mom. We are extremely worried, and no one else seems to see it. But we aren't giving up.

[Errata]

Sixteen years seems way too low, but there you go.

Yeah, our rape laws didn't catch up to modern times until about 10 years ago. Better late than never I guess.

[babybird67]

It never fails to amaze me how shrill and unpleasant certain people get when they feel everyone does not agree with them.

Unpleasant like using belittling names to people (little) Bob? Yes, astonishing isn't it.

My original post, No 46, states my position very clearly. I believe it is everyone’s responsibility to take every precaution to ensure their safety – in other words – be careful.

Your position was blaming women for their own rapes. Nobody could argue with a position of taking care over their own safety, however women would be better consulting a rape crisis organisation to find out what these safety measures are. NONE of them include dressing differently since as has been pointed out several times, women are raped no matter what they wear.

My position on this matter has not changed, and yet I have been accused of being a rapist, supporting rapists, a bigot, a sexist and strangely enough racist (no I’m not quite sure where that came from either!) The point is why do some people suddenly become so vitriolic when being advised to take care?

I get passionate, not vitriolic, when being told women are responsible for being raped if they dress to accentuate their sexuality, because that is rubbish, peddles myths which are untrue and damaging to women and women's rights.

The vicious bullying methods used by these people leave me wondering what on earth motivates them?

What motivates you to keep belittiling Tom Bob? Do you feel threatened in some way?

They make ludicrous statements which when proved to be incorrect they, or their cohorts, deny that was what they meant. I predicted as such and my predictions have come true.

If you can see past your overblown ego, I shall point out again, you have not proven anything I have said to be incorrect. I have reiterated it several times. It remains true. And no prediction you have made has come anywhere near being true. I'm sorry you are so blinkered as to continue to believe if you bring in a different subject to a thread you can somehow distort other people's statements and try to make them about another subject, but rational debate doesn't work like that. It's not good just changing the subject because you can't win the debate on the subject we were having. I know it's a tactic you regularly employ, but believe me, intelligent people can see right through it.

I would urge these people to save your fingers, I do not respond to threats or bullies, I am not afraid of your words – I am not afraid of you.

Save my fingers and shut up? And allow you to claim ridiculously that you have been proven right when the opposite is true? No way.

What does scare me is that people who apparently are allowed to wander around unaccompanied can behave in such an appalling manner.

Hmmm. Appalling? If challenging racism and sexism is behaving in an appalling manner, then I guess, yes, I'm behaving appallingly, but I can live with that. I think it's appalling to try to shift the blame for a crime onto the victim of that crime, but there you go, we all have our own moral compass to abide by.

I would like to thank others for all the emails I have received in support of my view – I quite understand why you would not wish to lay yourself open to such vicious, pernicious attacks on the board.

I agree with Ally. If people agree with you, have the courage of their convictions and say so. Don't hide behind other people.

Who was it who said “When the unintelligent and socially challenged find their arguments are without merit, they resort to violence – both verbal and actual”.

Hear hear!

Or they resort to distortion and lies, perhaps? Mystic Bob, nuh huh.

[babybird67]

word of advice glyn

don't give up the day job.

[glyn]

don't give up the day job.

Well ,well, well, some things are almost unbelievable.

[Zodiac]

As has already been stated, there is no way of dressing so as to prevent one's self from being a victim of rape, but, on the otherhand, as others have said, there are some simple and very general precautions that we can all take. First and formost among these, and I cannot stress this enough, is, do everything in your power to avoid men with beards!!! Now look, I am not saying that every last bloke who CHOOSES to wear a beard is necessarily a rapist, serial killer, paedophile or public masturbator, but as long as they CHOOSE to go out and about in public looking akin to the likes of Charles Manson, Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman, Osama Bin Laden, Abu Hamza Al-Masri, Garry Glitter or, God Forbid... Noel Edmonds, then I'm afraid that they are simply asking for it. So please ladies, tell your menfolk not, on any account, to don the beard. Yes, they may well shout and scream and protest that it is their right, and nobdody elses business, to wear whatever they choose to, but please ladies, try to make them understand that we live in the real world not the perfect world. If they CHOOSE to go out looking like a bearded nonce, then they must except that they bear, at the very least to some extent, the responsibility for whatever kickings/being made to be someones "bitch" that may befall them.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

http://www.vimeo.com/24413477

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVcyNANK5cY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15S0g8pG6HU&feature=relmfu