No limits to immigration

[Bob Hinton]

Hi Everyone,

I think this thread is getting disturbing. Babybird had the voice of sanity here, and fair play. Some of the points that are being made I would suggest are nearing the point of racism.

Best wishes.

I assume you are referring to me here, so what race exactly am I denigrating?

[babybird67]

Those who are still of opinion that immigration doesn't cause any worth-discussing problem have been fairly dubbed as "useful idiots". And indeed that's what they are.

I wonder who those people are? Certainly I have never said 'immigration doesn't cause any worth-discussing problem', if i can decipher what that means.

What I have said is that not all immigrants are criminals and criminal behaviour of SOME immigrants should not be a reason for arguing against a policy of immigration full stop. Perhaps 'hell hath no fury' is also an apt response to your rather puzzling post. By the way David, have you always lived where you were born? Same question to Mike. LOL! Gotta love hypocrisy!



Unfortunately that's an unpalatable position to many racists. Luckily they expose themselves by their own words. And TomTom, your parallel with the awful prejudices abounding at the time of the Ripper murders is most apt. It is a shame intellectual progression appears to have been stunted by a hundred years in some people.

[babybird67]

So you can't do it then.

As I said Bob right after you've apologised and/or clarified what you suggested I said, in two posts which you have misrepresented.

[Hatchett]

Hello Bob,

If the cap fits then wear it, my friend.

You dont need to select a particular race to be racist.

I think you know what I mean. There is no need for me to spell it out.

Best wishes.

[Limehouse]

Here is an example of how 'wonderful Brits' behave abroad in the Costa Del Crime:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3032066/New-gangland-wars-in-Costa-del-Sol-prove-crime-is-booming.html

And here is another:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-release-names-of--costa-del-crime-wanted-2221049.html

In Bob's own words: A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

Well this lot of criminals retired to Spain and did most of the above!

So - looks as if we are just as bad eh?

[babybird67]

sorry Julie

Here is an example of how 'wonderful Brits' behave abroad in the Costa Del Crime:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3032066/New-gangland-wars-in-Costa-del-Sol-prove-crime-is-booming.html

And here is another:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-release-names-of--costa-del-crime-wanted-2221049.html

In Bob's own words: A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

Well this lot of criminals retired to Spain and did most of the above!

So - looks as if we are just as bad eh?

You must be mistaken. It's only them nasty law-breaking 'other nationalities' that are capable of commiting crimes, remember?

Seriously, well found. Nice post.

[TomTomKent]

Quite right Tom Tom, it's all in our imagination. Remind me again about the robbers who murdered a police officer and injured 21 other people in 1909 in Tottenham, oh and wasn't there something about three police officers being murdered in Houndsditch in 1910, and of of course there was the jolly little get together in Sidney Street in 1911.

Oh these immigrant scamps! Robbing and murdering people on the streets of London all a bit of a laugh really wasn't it?

I did not suggest immigrants have not been involved with crime, only that immigration can not be equated to criminality as a general rule (or, to be more accurate a stereotype). We could easily list all the robberies and murders in London that were NOT performed by immigrants. Assuming all immigrants are criminals, or that the majority of criminals are immigrants are not backed up by the raw data.

By the logic you display in that post we would have to deport all citizens who recieve benefits of any descriptions, because gosh, I can name a few criminals who were on Job Seekers. No, that would be silly. We'll just assume all Cockneys are criminals, you know, because of the Krays. Wait, wait, that would be dumb. How about middle class daily mail readers? LOADS of crimes can be attributed to them... Far more statistically significant. Or are crimes NOT performed by immigrants "all in my head" and "a bundle of laughs" too?

[TomTomKent]

Oh, and one more thought before anybody drags up a particularly ugly spectre:

Enoch Powels' biggest mistake was assuming nobody would try and fact check his "rivers of blood" spittle. It may well be true he recieved a letter CLAIMING the things he described (odd we have no evidence of it though) but, erm, those claims seem to be false. The only woman who may have fit the description in Powel's constituency had vastly different views from those described in the speech, did not have her home vandalised, and babysat for families from a vast range of ethnicities.

A tangent I know, but one of those "yes I listen to radio 4 at work" factoids I have been aching to share. But then I chose to do it on a forum of people who also, no doubt, listen to radio 4 at work. Bugger.

[Limehouse]

Oh, and one more thought before anybody drags up a particularly ugly spectre:

Enoch Powels' biggest mistake was assuming nobody would try and fact check his "rivers of blood" spittle. It may well be true he recieved a letter CLAIMING the things he described (odd we have no evidence of it though) but, erm, those claims seem to be false. The only woman who may have fit the description in Powel's constituency had vastly different views from those described in the speech, did not have her home vandalised, and babysat for families from a vast range of ethnicities.

A tangent I know, but one of those "yes I listen to radio 4 at work" factoids I have been aching to share. But then I chose to do it on a forum of people who also, no doubt, listen to radio 4 at work. Bugger.

Hi Tom - excellent stuff.

I listen to Radio Four at home and I listened to that programme about Enoch Powell's speech and I fully support what you say.

[The Good Michael]

I haven't seen any racist arguments so far on this thread. It's silly that people take good conversational material and simplify it to fit what they want to oppose. I suggest that things become simplified because they cannot grasp the complexity of the situation. No one has said immigrants are criminals. No one has said there are more immigrant criminals than native ones. What has been said is that there is too miuch unchecked immigration, and that may be argued if one wishes to, What I find ludicrous is the idea that some people are equating the resettling of retired people, with money, to sunnier climes, with immigration problems. These problems are about unskilled laborers and not about people coming to a new country because they have been offered a job. THose too are immigrants, but they are not droves of unchecked, unskilled workers.

My suggestions only have to do with ensuring there is an employment demand before allowing immigration. And why not make sponsorship the way to get into a country. No one doesn't want immigrants. They want immigrants and native citizens to be responsible to their communities. I have worked in several countries, but I'm no immigrant. I am a resident only and have no desire for citizenship, and in actuality, I couldn't become a citizen in these countries unless, God forbid, I married one.

Let's go to David and France. France has a terrible history of unchecked immigration from their former colonies, and there seems to be no stopping it. France is no longer French. Is that necessarily a problem? No, but all the social ills that have been created because of massive and rapid change has been a problem. But, I only know what I read. David would be able to say more, much more.

Speak the language, or be in demand with skills, and get sponsored, and serve the community in some capacity, and you are welcome in without issue.

Mike

[Bob Hinton]

The Good Michael

How dare you speak sense! You'll have the twitterers after you now.

It's amazing how often these people change tack in defence of the indefensible. I pointed out that a proportion of immigrants commit vicious, violent crimes –I am then accused of saying that ‘all immigrants are criminals’. When I ask a simple question ‘Show me where I said that’ we have the bluff and the bluster, the wiffle and the waffle, the excuses pouring out – but still they don’t answer the question.

When someone comments that people disliked immigrants in the LVP and isn’t it about time we moved on, I point out that great piles of dead policemen lying in the streets might have coloured peoples opinions somewhat, we get silly comments about our thinking being stuck back in the last century.

These people cannot answer simple question. I asked one of them “Do you support immigrants who commit crimes being deported?” Do you think I can get a yes or no? Not on your life. We get all the bluster and “Well if it’s what the courts decide etc etc etc”.. Jeez simple question yes or no.

The fact is that any new wave of immigration is always followed by a new crime wave. This is startlingly true of the UK where since immigration has boomed in the last 50 years so has crime. The majority of major crime organizations in the UK are now run by immigrants – sticking your head in the sand will not alter that.

There are also other problems as well such as ethnic cleansing. I believe I am correct in saying there are three major cities in the UK where the immigrants outnumber the indigenous population. The problem here is that these incomers are not assimilating into the culture of the country – they are simply taking it over and installing their own version of their own country.

I used to live in St Helens Road in Swansea in the early seventies, opposite the old hospital. Now when I go down there there are no more indigenous families left. The chapel is now a huge Mosque and so on. Talking to some of the traders who used to have business’s there they all tell the same story. They were told they no longer were allowed to live there and were threatened with violence if they didn’t leave. When they went to the police they were threatened with prosecution under the race relations act.

It is a fact that a lot of countries use immigration to get rid of their bad apples. Look at what happened to the US when the wall came down. Russia opened the prison gates and shipped them off to New York. When Castro took over he did the same thing there.

Of course we always get the “Oh they are only trying to get a better life” Really? Then why do they cross Europe to get to Britain? It’s because Britain is a soft touch. If you don’t accept that then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Immigration as it stands today is doing irreparable harm to two groups of people. One are the indigenous population and the other is the decent hardworking immigrants who want to come here to live our way of life, and to embrace our culture.

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

Wow interesting story in the Telegraph this morning:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8539116/Immigration-flows-hit-six-year-high.html

[The Good Michael]

I was reading about Australia's immigration policies. The vast majority of immigrants come from skilled sectors and for purposes of bringing family members back together. I guess that that means allowing mainly UK immigrants to rejoin family. The number is adjusted based upon the economy and need.

Perhaps an Aussie could tell us how it works.

The only complaint I see is that so many of one ethnicity settle in the same places. An example is that 63+ percent of all Koreans in Australia are in New South Wales. I imagine that little ethnic communities are formed that could be seen as threatening if they attempt to keep their own cultures without abiding by the local laws at the same time. Anyone one who knows about Koreatown in Los Angeles understands the absolute disregard for law and manners that occurs there, yet it only affects those who enter the area. I am giving one example and in no way denigrating Koreans. It is the example I have handy.

Mike

[DirectorDave]

Everytime I come to pub talk this is near the top of the board......Iand for the first couple of seconds I always miss-read it as "No limits on regeneration"......thats what I get for being a Whovian.

Anyway if we were all equal and had the same rights and stuff all over the world people would not move for economic reasons people would just move/emigrate because they fancied trying another country.

But until we achieve that Utopia every country must have some control on immigration to protect Jobs and Services.

[TomTomKent]

Hislops law could easily be applied to this thread; if you have to go out of your way to tell people there were no racist implications toa statement, then the implications were probably racist. Intended or not a false correlation between immigrants and dead policemen was suggested, which ignores;
A) Immigrants who have not been killing policemen.
B) dead bodies not caused by immigrants.