No limits to immigration

[Jonathan H]

Except for the original Aboriginal inhabitants, their successful and mostly peaceful way of life smashed and ruined of course, Australia since 1788 is a nation of immigrants -- mostly Anglo and Irish.

Since the 1970's we have people from everywhere here, and every group gets along except for the ones who don't.

As a believer in equality of the sexes I want a halt to all Islamic immigration to my country for about a decade, because it is a faith which breeds systemic intolerance when allowed to grow, via immigration, unchecked in large numbers -- small numbers is no problem and enriches the cultural diversity of what used to be an excruciatingly dull country.

This is not racist, as you should hear the Arab Australians (Christians from Lebanon) I know, who shake their heads at seeing the evils of Sharia Law achieving any kind of beach-head in our easy-going, parliamentary democracy.

I also blame Big Business, who care nothing for these people's sincere, if totalitarian faith as they just want to exploit their labour. Corporations pressuring governments into using the 'racist' stick, to shoehorn these poor suckers into a pluralist, secular society, one totally incompatible with their Medieval beliefs.

I think that all asylum seekers fleeing such tyranny should be welcomed with open arms, not stuck in some Antipodean gulag waiting to be processed -- for years!

Especially from Iran, the most vile regime on Earth. Give them a street parade as you would a POW making it out of Colditz (though the Nazi, castle prison was a bastion of civilized values compared to 12th Century/21st Century Persia).

Well, welcome everybody except for refugees from Afghanistan, who must be sent back because our soldiers are in Afghanistan fighting for their freedom. If that is not working then we should welcome them with open arms too, and withdraw our troops from a 'country' which, over several centuries, flummoxed the British, the Soviets and now an American-led coalition (which includes, in a minor capacity, the Russians again.)

It was completely exhilarating that Osama, that despicable coward, before he died felt at least a tiny taste of the mortal fear he had inflicted on his thousands of victims-- including Muslims -- so 'mission accomplished', and now let's exit from that hellhole with as much dignitas as we can scrounge.

Sorry if my 'politically incorrect' opinions offend people, but as a socialist and a feminist I have no time for building up a voting block who will demand that separatism and sexism be institutionalized. Which is not their fault, it's ours for merging what cannot be merged -- all for the sake of short-term and short-sighted profit.

Just ask the Netherlands.

[Sister Hyde]

i still think it's a matter of education and environnement and of religion, I was in high school with arabs, loads of them, well i've never seen any of my girlfriends wearing anything on their head or living like repressed women, they studied what they wanted to study now they work, they booze at parties, they have the same love life as any girl of their age, and don't mention dry pig-gut sausage so they will eat it in one bite, and if you ask them if they do go to the mosk they will laugh at you. and mainly their parents and grandparents came here to get free from their traditions, they would be incredibly pissed off to see their daughters wearing a veil or say "i'm gonna do the ramadan". now you hve just as many non practising moslim here as you have non practising christians. i think it's all a matter how how they've been raised by their parents and by their surrounding.

[The Good Michael]

Hislops law could easily be applied to this thread; if you have to go out of your way to tell people there were no racist implications toa statement, then the implications were probably racist. .

Or.... you were accused and decided to defend yourself. Anyone who makes a remark that claims all people who say that aren't being racist must actually be so, is generalizing in the exact same way that racists do.... oh wait, was I generalizing about those idiots? My bad.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

As a believer in equality of the sexes I want a halt to all Islamic immigration to my country for about a decade, because it is a faith which breeds systemic intolerance when allowed to grow, via immigration, unchecked in large numbers -- small numbers is no problem and enriches the cultural diversity of what used to be an excruciatingly dull country.

I agree completely. When small numbers of fundamentalists can practice what they want to practice when some civilizations have striven for ages to try and get some equality, and the common man can see that these Islamic ideas are from the dark ages, why should they be allowed? If you've been in as many countries I have (not many really) and have spent a lot of time observing culture, the whole idea of culture as something pleasant and important to society seems to vanish. Too often, culture is used as an excuse for unacceptable behavior. I have thousands of examples, but I'll give one simple one that is not so egregious. In Kazakhstan, people always take two chairs, one for them and one for their bag and coat. They will not have the inclination to move their bag in a crowded area so that elderly or mothers and babies might sit down. They will move it if told to, but will place it on their laps. Why? They believe that by putting their bags onhe ground, the money will flow out. They believe whistling in someone's home will cause the hosts to lose money as well. This seems like superstitious nonsense, of course, but when questioned, it is their cultural belief. In Korea, of course, a dog muse be beaten or bolied to death before eating as this makes adrenaline course through the meat and the adrenaline makes men more verile. When questioned? "Yeah, maybe it's not true, but it's culture." In recalling our Eurpean heritage in America, we celebrate a few holidays and maybe put on dirndl and lederhosen once a year, and have fun and silliness with culture. It won't be until culture is a nostalgic memory that people will get along.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Another example of 'culture' in southern Kazakhstan and Kyrgystan: The vast majority of marriages are done through a wonderful process called 'bride-napping'. The young girl (15-18ish) will be going somehwere and in these countries every car is a taxi, and suddenly, a bag will be thrown over her head and she finds herself at a wedding celebration, her own. In Kyrgystan, it is estimated that one in 20 marry the boy they've chosen. Their Islamic faith tells them that they miust be chaste and mustn't be alone with boys. They are very well protected because parents don't want them to fall prey to this kind of thing. They want their daughters to marry a man with money and bride-nappers take the girls because they don't have enough money for the whole wedding thing, and also because, moe often than not, the girl has no idea who the boy is that is taking her, or knows who he is and doesn't want him.

Upon arriving at the house where they will be married, the reluctant girl is put through at least a day of brainwashing by older women who have been through this and tell her it's for the best. After they've sat up all night with her, she can leave if she doesn't want to go through with it, but they will curse her with everything from barrenness to cancer. Assuming the girl wants to still leave, she can't because her loving parents who have taken care of her are now shamed because she has refused to marry a man she hates. She is outcast.

Of course Kazakh women when asked about what they would do if this happened to them will say that they don't want to think about such things, and culturally, they would have to accept it.

This practice is a combination of male superiority granted through Islam, and old Steppe customs. All the stories are ones of horror that become 'that's life' after a few years of hating it.

It's culture, but it isn't something I want to allow in my country and this kind of thing happens in Britain all the time in certain communities (which will not be mentioned) and have happened with Canadians who are not Islamic and have no ideas about their heritage, but are subjected to this kind of thing when going abroad for some kind of ceremony in teh old country. To a 15-18 year olf girl, traveling is exciting. When it turns out to be their own wedding, it becomes horrifying. Any culture that imposes terror upon its young, doesn't belong in my country. In tehir own, it shouldn't belong, but I have no control over that.

Mike

[Errata]

It's funny, my two friends who I referred to earlier (The Muslim Iranian and the Hindu Pakistani) it never once occurred to me that they conformed to American society.

I suppose they did to an extent, though I never noticed. My Muslim friend never wore a veil, for example. Both kept their religions, the dietary laws, the bindi, My Hindu friend dressed somewhat traditionally (like a sari and a tshirt). I think the most glaring difference was My Hindu friend had an arranged marriage, and my Muslim friend seemed like she was constantly excusing herself to pray. But I guess they lived the American dream.

They went to college, My Hindu friend married her arranged husband (she was free not to, she chose to honor the agreement) and they are in love and have kids, and she's a successful doctor.

My Hindu friend did something she NEVER could have done at home. She came out, found the love of her life, and they have been partners for a decade. She is still devout, she still doesn't wear a headscarf, and she teaches.

And both of them go home. Regularly. Something their parent's have f elt unable to do. Both have tracked down family they lost touch with, both have embraced their native cultures. My Pakistani friend went back to her poor rural town and set up a free clinic, treating the same people who tried to kill her family. She has assisted people in getting out of Pakistan, she has treated the refugees pouring in from Afghanistan.

My Iranian friend has been back home as well, miraculously with her partner. She found family she thought had been killed, she set up an arts center for kids near her home village. She goes out to the underground clubs, finds the gay kids and adults, talks to them, gives them hope, and occasionally smuggles them out. But she always goes back.

I'm not sure how much of our culture they have embraced. They don't really take it home with them. They use it to make their home a better place for their ex-countrymen. My Iranian friend dreams a free Iran, one where she can go back and be who she is without fear of death. I think my Pakistani also dreams of a more tolerance between Indians and Pakistanis, Hindu's and Muslims. Certainly she has never abandoned her traditional Hindu clothing in Pakistan. She wears it proudly, and tells them that she is one of them.

I don't think they assimilated. I think they took what they learned back to their old homes, and tried to make them a better place. And maybe THATS the immigration solution. Let us give you the tools to go home and make it a better place.

[Sister Hyde]

Mike now you scare me about your country, i must say i found the kazakh youth sooo lovely some years ago, when they started to flood our label to get us to play gigs there (they were too far and too poor to actually travel to the main metal festivals in western europe, but a lot of fans were doing that from everywhere around the world they just had no money or were ay to far to travel), then after the label turned it down for "safety reason" claiming our music was forbidden there and that we might even get killed, they started to write to us directly begging us to come and play there, saying they would gladly host nd feed us for some days if we agreed to come and play there. unfortunately after scary stories 3 band members out of 5 said they refused to pay from their own money to go play in a country where we might get in very serious trouble for the message our music was bearing, it was obvious we couldn't do it. but these youngsters were so sweet and really had their hand upon their heart. that's not really the impression I got from them

[The Good Michael]

Hyde,

The Kazakh people are cool, especially the youth. They just have these old customs that linger on in certain areas. Perhaps it isn't fair to talk about the taking of young girls as a negative thing. It's just culture.

Mike

[Sister Hyde]

well i think it's only a matter of time for them, for the elder generation to go, before they live their life and modify the system. it is unfair about the girls, but i'm sure it's only a matter of time before the people stop doing it. look at Tunisia for instance, been there many times since i was a young child since my father's family came from there, well even 10 years ago in Tunisia I could not see any difference in the mentality of the people, no girl was veiled, they had the same education program as we did, they were going out wearing make up, choosing their boyfriends, they have the right to file for divorce themselves without needing their husbands agreement to it, they have the right to abort and the right to choose contraception without anyone approval, I was invited many many times to the mosk for circumscisions or weddings, well they were all gathered without differences of sex, without covering their faces, the girls were even mostly wearing thigh length skirt and spaghetti-shoulders tops (yes! in a mosk!), and except in the desert, well of course Tunisia was introduced to tolerance already much earlier thanks to Bourguiba who freed the women after kicking the french out, but it's the same in Marocco (even without having had Bourguiba to forbid the charia and give women their rights), and strangely both these country see their algerian neighbours as "retarded tyrants". so in the end it will only be a matter of years before foundamentalists loose their powers in other countries. the old ones won't live eternally.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

Here’s some more peace loving immigrants, who have only come here to work hard for a better life for their families:

Four Muslim men sentenced to long jail terms for smashing a man’s skull with a concrete block, slashing his face with a knife and then beating him with an iron bar. Why? They didn’t like the way he taught in a local school.

Jamaican drug lords found to be cheating the benefit system to fund their millionaire life style in Jamaica.

A Somali gang known to be heavily involved in street robberies and drug dealing believed to be involved in the shooting of two people.

A black man of stocky build runs down a pregnant woman while stealing her car.

And that’s from just two days papers!

No one is saying or intimating that all immigrants are criminals, but do we really need to be importing more?

[TomTomKent]

If nobody is saying all immigtants are criminals why continue to give examples that imply that is what you are saying? Why not give examples of crimes committed by non-immigrants, or offer any kind of statistical context? Oh and a "black man" equates to "immigrant" now does it? It is not at all possible somebody may be black and born in the UK? Not tomention the data sourceis "what the papers found newsworthy" and not "any form off balanced and objective comparison to the proportion and severity of crimes committed by Uk nationals and those of other nationalities".

Count all of the people you mention in those newsreports. A teeny tiny fraction of a percent of the immigrants in the UK. So what is thepoint of the post? To say "we dont need to import new criminals". Yet you offer no valid suggestion how to know which tiny fractionare criminals, or why they are any less worthy of living here than the vastly larger number of local criminals. Simply saying "foreign criminals are bad" does not hidethe fact your post implies they are bad by virtue of being foreign, and indeed implies exactly what you deny in a caveat slung on the end in the hope of changing the implications of the statement.

It fails. Again hislops law should have been applied.

[Errata]

A black man of stocky build runs down a pregnant woman while stealing her car.

Was the black man an immigrant, or merely clearly non-native because the British Isles were originally populated by white people?

Because I desperately hope you do not argue the second scenario. Because then the entire Island is in trouble, given that the Saxons predate the Normans, and I think the Picti, Scotti, Anacotti, And Celts predate the Saxons, and then you gotta figure out who was on the island first and then you're probably talking about people who still had fur, which whatever they were, it wasn't Caucasian.

Black people have been in the British Isles for hundreds of years. I think slavery was outlawed in the early 1800's maybe? And it was a thriving business for about 200 years before that I think? So he could well be more native than your average joe.

London is evidently the eighth largest population of French people. Not something I have heard a whole lot of complaints about. And I'm not saying you're a racist, but I think it is very easy to concentrate on the people who look different and sort of ignore the people who look the same. We do it here. We have exactly zero conversations about illegal Canadians. And there are quite a few of them. And it's not like they don't commit crime either.

And you gotta wonder, why gangs who profit from weapons, sex and drugs come here. Or there. We got a big influx of Russian gangster a few years after the fall of Communism. Not because they make more money here, there was just too much competition in Russia. I mean, gangs wouldn't come here if they didn't think they could thrive here. Now we clearly have a bigger gun problem than you guys have, although of course we can have psychopaths buy guns legally here. But we have people who come together to put grocery stores out of business because they arent organic... why can't we boycott foreign drugs? I'd say boycott drugs altogether but clearly thats too much to ask. Boycott foreign prostitute rings. Demand home grown is what I'm saying. We have to deal with immigration, but a lot of it solves itself if we create an atmosphere where foreign gangs aren't going to prosper here. Then we just have to deal with the far more prevalent local gangs. But thats another thread.

[TomTomKent]

I am often amazed that the same people who complain about immigrationalso argue againstthe overseas development fund. But the latter is the most, possibly the only, effective way of decreasing the former.

And yes, the begining of the end of slavery was William Wilberforth, making it a long time ago. The trading of slaves as an industry fell with the american civil war, so hardly recent.

[Sister Hyde]

yeah yeah yeah i can get juyst as many gllomy aweful stories setting good well educated white asses then so called "******s" or "sand******s" or "yellows" or whatever, in my case, human being are vermints, there is no need to be an "ape" or a "jew" or "an arab" to be a scumbag, just being a human being is just enough, I hate regardless of breeds

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

I am often amazed that the same people who complain about immigrationalso argue againstthe overseas development fund. But the latter is the most, possibly the only, effective way of decreasing the former.

And yes, the begining of the end of slavery was William Wilberforth, making it a long time ago. The trading of slaves as an industry fell with the american civil war, so hardly recent.

Yes I believe that's called 'Danegeld'. And slavery is alive and well and flourishing, but mainly carried on today by third world countries who have always been the main traders in slaves.