Leslie Van Houten should be released on parole

[DVV]

In my opinion, if she truly felt the responsibility for what she had done, if she truly felt the horror of her crimes, then she would understand that society and justice demands she remain where she belongs.

Society and justice give her the right to stand for parole, Ally.

[DVV]

No, Ally.

And as I've pointed out, Bugliosi himself said...what I've quoted above...

Simply, I don't know the experts names, but it's pretty clear that she is considered to be remorseful and not dangerous to others.

And it's just a pub talk about what casebookers may feel about her possible release, Ally.
We are not trying her again.

Amitiés,
David

[Ally]

Yes actually the names do matter. When someone is being called an expert, and his or her opinion is being given more weight than others based on that expert opinion, then absolutely YES the name does matter. Otherwise that expert opinion is worthless.

And there are not MANY experts for calling for her release. Tehre is ONE document that is quoted and repeated in every pro-Leslie website out there. ONE opinion that states she is rehabilitated and deserves to be released.

There are no MANY expert opinions. There is one prison psychiatrist, who for all we know graduated from Mexico's Get your Psych Degree online with Five easy payments University who is saying she is suitable for parole.

And frankly, I do not care if she is perfectly reformed. In my opinion, if she truly felt the responsibility for what she had done, if she truly felt the horror of her crimes, then she would understand that society and justice demands she remain where she belongs.

She doesn't care. She doesn't even know the ages of the two people's whose lives she murdered. She is completely indifferent to the magnitude of what she did. And while she might mouth platitudes about her responsibility and her understanding, the fact that she couldn't recall a most basic fact about the two people she helped to slaughter speaks more than any lip service she pays to understanding her responsibility.

[DVV]

Ally, these experts say so, I've quoted one of them, does his name matter ?

As for the stance "a life demands a life", I think we can be a little better than that, but this logic isn't barbaric, imo.

Amitiés,
David

[Ally]

No, 80-90 year old criminals don't represent much of a danger. But they stay in prison because they committed a crime that DEMANDS that they pay with their lives.

You may call it what you will, be it our bloodthirsty nature or simple logic, but a life demands a life. And if you kill someone, you shouldn't be free to take up your life until your victim is free to take up theirs. Why should she get to live the life she denied her victims?

And you STILL haven't managed to come forward with the name of a single "expert" who is recommending her parole.

[DVV]

Serial murderers and mass murderers are not released every year and certainly not in the dozens.

True. They're not released because they still represent a danger.

[DVV]

Is this full responsibility:

"Yes, yes. You know, I didn't take Mrs. LaBianca's life, but I feel as responsible as if I had."

This is in the 21st century and she's still banging on about how she didn't kill Rosemary.

She continues:

"She was dead before you were stabbing her?"

" I felt that she was. And in my early years, it gave me some kind of comfort, and then as, of course, I matured, and my understanding of responsibility took greater depth, you know, it doesn't make that much difference to me"

Thanks for that.

Leslie, indeed, means that what she did is as much horrible as what the other killers did - those who gave the fatal stabs.

[Ally]

Yes dozens of criminals are paroled every year. Thieves, and drug addicts, rapists and even the odd murderer. Serial murderers and mass murderers are not released every year and certainly not in the dozens.

[DVV]

Of course it was partisan. That was the point. DVV is reading a partisan website and getting all his info from that site, so the other side puts up theirs and the truth is in the middle.

Certainly not.
I read everything I can read about the case.

Including John Waters, who is far more balanced than you seem to imply.

Nobody denies the horror of the crimes, nor Leslie's guilt and responsability.

But 40 years may be enough.

You're welcome to disagree, but like it or not, dozens of criminals are paroled every year.

Amitiés,
David

[Magpie]

That's their job.
As you well understand, had only ONE report concluded that Leslie wasn't suitable for parole, the victims' family would have let us know...

If there was ONE report that said what you said NO reports said, then your repeated claim that ALL (and you keep emphasizing ALL) the experts agree is not only false, but a demonstratble lie.

[doris]

Ah I see ally.

Although Iam unsure whether she should be released or not.
As far as I can see the only criteria which needs considering is, is the person likely to re-offend?

If they aren't likely to surely the only reason to keep them banged up is to slake societies primitive desire for vengence.

And sorry to keep going on about Hierons but surely the actions of the police at the time of arrest are sufficient to cause reasonable doubt? In that case shouldnt he be released?

I always think that irrespective of the crime if the police dont act perfectly in accord with the law the criminal should be given the benefit of the doubt.

If police dont play properly why should anyone else?

doris

[Magpie]

Is this full responsibility:

"Yes, yes. You know, I didn't take Mrs. LaBianca's life, but I feel as responsible as if I had."

This is in the 21st century and she's still banging on about how she didn't kill Rosemary.

She continues:

"She was dead before you were stabbing her?"

" I felt that she was. And in my early years, it gave me some kind of comfort, and then as, of course, I matured, and my understanding of responsibility took greater depth, you know, it doesn't make that much difference to me"

[DVV]

This is just comic, Ally.

The "experts" are those who testify or send their reports to the parole board.

That's their job.
As you well understand, had only ONE report concluded that Leslie wasn't suitable for parole, the victims' family would have let us know...


As to Bugliosi, I value his opinion as much as I value yours.
I even suspect that he knows the case a bit more than us.

Amitiés,
David

[Ally]

I tried reading the page you linked to but found it too partisan.

Of course it was partisan. That was the point. DVV is reading a partisan website and getting all his info from that site, so the other side puts up theirs and the truth is in the middle.

I wonder if victims families are the correct people to listen to with regard to releasing ofenders. They are hardly going to be objective are they?

You are right, the only people who should have a say in who gets released are the actual victims themselves. So again, when her victims come and testify at her parole hearing that she should be released, then I say release her.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=DVV;127221]"

Each day I wake up, I know why I'm waking up where I am."
Leslie Van Houten, 1991.

Which is not expressing any remorse or responsibility at all. That is a neutral statement. She could be saying each day I wake up and I know why I am here "because people hate me and are mean and nasty".

How about this one:

" I didn't take Mrs. Labianca's life but I feel as responsible as if I had". 1994

Uh yeah right, you stabbed her 16 times but you didn't take her life. She was still ALIVE when you started stabbing her.

That's accepting responsibility? She's STILL in denial about her role and the fact that she stabbed a living breathing woman until she was dead.

"I carry this crime with me as if I was the only one. Each act we did in that house, I take responsability for. I can't place the blame one someone else. It was me."
Leslie Van Houten, 2000.

Oh yeah here's this one:

"Van Houten: I felt responsible for Mrs. Labianca's murder because I was there with her but I don't feel responsible for Mr. Labianca."

She was there with her? What holding her hand and singing love songs.

She also said : "I blame myself, I'm part of what made Manson a leader. A folower is as responsible for allowing a leader to lead them foully."

She also said: "Pat and Susan have a lot more to live with than I do".

Now, Bugliosi (to Larry King, and Bugliosi is by no means a Leslie-freak, quite the reverse):

And I care about him because?

Lastly, an expert opinion (among many, all agreeing):

"It is my opinion that she has continued this self improvement, not as a motivation to parole but as a genuine interest in battering herself. It is my opinion that the inmate would not be dangerous if she was released to the community."

Once again, who are these MANY expert opinions? Where are their names and professional credentials to weigh? Who are these so-called MANY that you keep referring to?