EU Vote

[Svensson]

Hard to tell how legally binding he referendum is but it would take a Commons house with serious cojones to disregard the outcome of the referendum and I think this would be extremely unwise.

Do you know, Svensson, you could have been talking about the famed UK right of veto there.

Although a potential hot potato, I think that we do need some kind of press standards commission of some kind. The three dailies have an agenda to spin every story that is somehow EU related to ensure that the headline is Anti-EU instead of reporting the actual story.

Um, let me guess : would that be a press standards commission designed to outlaw any statement with which EU supporters disagree? Perhaps overseen by the EU itself?

No, the UK parliament has a veto or an opt-out option (depending on the type of statute or directive) for EU regulations, not its own referendum (http://www.euro-know.org/europages/dictionary/v.html)

Yes, better press standards are required. The Press have a responsibility to provide correct information in a way that is easily accessible to the reader (not in paragraph 7 on page 5 when the front-page says the complete opposite).

Interesting idea to have the EU oversee this. Look at what is happening in Turkey where journalistic freedom has all but disappeared under Erdogan and the press is now just a propaganda-machine used for political purposes.

Let's just say IF there was an EU press regulation and Turkey WAS a member of the EU, would this not an additional layer that would have protected free press in Turkey..? As I said, potential hot potato, but that should not stop us from doing thought experiments like this one.

[curious4]

Hard to tell how legally binding he referendum is but it would take a Commons house with serious cojones to disregard the outcome of the referendum and I think this would be extremely unwise. Fact is that the Remain corner in this fight have a massive majority in Parliament, so Parliament would have to act against its own convictions.

The crux is that the referendum does not state what alternative relationship the UK should have with the EU and it is therefore up to the government to negotiate the new relationship and for parliament (both houses) to ratify the new relationship. It is very conceivable that the UK will exit the EU but then join the Single market. if that were the case, the UK would still be required to accept continued budget contributions, continued free movement of labour, and continued supremacy of EU law over British law in the single market. All of which is the very point that the Leave camp are campaigning against.

There is a precedent in Sweden. The Swedes voted against changing from driving on the left, to driving on the right. The government went ahead and changed to the right anyway.

C4

[Svensson]

Sorry to mention the war, Svensson - it obviously pains you - but it's a good job you weren't around when it was happening. You'd have burst a blood vessel. All those Little Englanders, Little Scotlanders, Little Welsh and Little Irish going off to die so that Little Britain could govern herself - they must all have been racists, right? I'm surprised we're allowed to remember them once a year. I dare say the EU will put a stop to that in due course.

Populism? You mean, saying things that people like? Or giving people what they want? Smells too much like democracy. Can't have that.

The EU has been rumbled. I saw through it 40 years ago. Some poor devils never will. But I believe that there is a real chance that we can finally escape from this impudent fraud.

I think bursting a blood vessel would be the least of my problems had I been around at a time when 50 million people lost their lives in the biggest orgy of violence this world has ever seen.

No, the Englanders are not racist which I think I have addressed a couple of posts above. And no, I believe there is no EU directive planned or being worked on to ban remembrance day. I also doubt that the EU have jurisdiction over such arrangements and if the Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph were to report just this, I would bet my house that this would (of course) be incorrect

I consider populism the dark art of dumbing down complex subject in order to get a particular response or to a point where they are no longer correct. For example:

1. Mexicans are rapists
2. We (UK) have no control over our borders.
3. We are governed by Brussels Bureaucrats.

no need to talk about the first point, but on the second point, we obviously forget that every passport is checked at UK borders and entry can be blocked by the HM Border guards. "Open borders"? Don't think so, but the issue has been dumbed down to the point of not being correct.

On the third point, the EU actually governs in agreement with its memberstates. The UK for example have 77 MEPs, members in the European council as well as the commission. the UK have representatives at every level of the EU law making process from conception to ratification. And even then, the UK still have a veto if they are after all this input still not happy with it.

So the idea that EU laws are being handed down by Brussels against the will of the UK is over-simplifying the issue to the point that it not correct. It's like saying that Manchester, who overwhelmingly voted Labour in 2010 and 2015, have Tory-laws handed down on them against their will. Cue the Mancunian independence movement. Should be interesting...

[Robert]

Hard to tell how legally binding he referendum is but it would take a Commons house with serious cojones to disregard the outcome of the referendum and I think this would be extremely unwise.

Do you know, Svensson, you could have been talking about the famed UK right of veto there.

Although a potential hot potato, I think that we do need some kind of press standards commission of some kind. The three dailies have an agenda to spin every story that is somehow EU related to ensure that the headline is Anti-EU instead of reporting the actual story.

Um, let me guess : would that be a press standards commission designed to outlaw any statement with which EU supporters disagree? Perhaps overseen by the EU itself?

[Svensson]

Read the other day that even if a majority vote to leave, the government is not bound to follow. Will try to find the article.

C4

Hard to tell how legally binding he referendum is but it would take a Commons house with serious cojones to disregard the outcome of the referendum and I think this would be extremely unwise. Fact is that the Remain corner in this fight have a massive majority in Parliament, so Parliament would have to act against its own convictions.

The crux is that the referendum does not state what alternative relationship the UK should have with the EU and it is therefore up to the government to negotiate the new relationship and for parliament (both houses) to ratify the new relationship. It is very conceivable that the UK will exit the EU but then join the Single market. if that were the case, the UK would still be required to accept continued budget contributions, continued free movement of labour, and continued supremacy of EU law over British law in the single market. All of which is the very point that the Leave camp are campaigning against.

[curious4]

This is it.


The Telegraph
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Telegraph News
Brexit is 'not deliverable', says David Cameron's father-in-law


Laura Hughes, political correspondent
7 JUNE 2016 • 6:56PM
A Brexit is "not deliverable" because parliament could conspire to block Britain leaving the European Union, David Cameron's father-in-law has claimed.

Lord Astor, who is Samantha Cameron's step-father, has said that a Brexit would have "not legal standing" even if the public vote to leave the 28 member bloc in June.

The Conservative peer also cast doubt over whether his son-in-law would be able to stay on as Prime Minister after the referendum.

David Cameron
David Cameron
Writing in the The Spectator, he said: "If the Brexiteers win, an exit from the EU is actually not deliverable. The EU referendum is merely advisory; it has no legal standing to force an exit.


"Parliament is still sovereign. We will need an Act of Parliament to revoke the European Communities Act 1972, by which Britain joined the EEC or Common Market, or perhaps a paving bill enabling the Government to start the Leave negotiations. But whatever, a vote will be required.

Union Jack flags fly in front of The Houses of Parliament, in London
Union Jack flags fly in front of The Houses of Parliament, in London CREDIT: JASON ALDEN/BLOOMBERG
"The Government, whether still led by David Cameron or not, would probably not win the vote in the House of Commons.

"Labour could claim the referendum was too close and did not include a majority to leave in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

"Therefore the Labour Party, the SNP and the few Lib Dems would claim to have the mandate to vote against the bill."

Lord Astor
Lord Astor CREDIT: IAN JONES
Membership of the House of Commons is overwhelmingly pro-EU, with just over 70 per cent of its present members campaigning for Remain at the referendum on June 23.

Unnamed ministers have told the BBC that in the event of a vote to leave, pro-EU MPs could engage in what one called a “reverse Maastricht” process - a reference to the long parliamentary campaign fought by Tory Eurosceptic MPs in the 1990s against legislation deepening EU integration.

This could see pro-EU MPs using the Conservative government's small working majority to push for the UK to stay in the single market.


© Telegraph Media Group Limited 2016

C4

[Svensson]

Hi Rosella

I too feel bad about Australia and New Zealand. I had no say in our joining the Common Market - that was done without asking the public what they thought about it. In the referendum that followed, in 1975, I voted to leave the Common Market, but the leavers were outvoted two to one.

Hi Julie

I'm not blaming the whole of the German nation for Hitler. One can argue back and forth about the precise level of complicity of the Germans in the crimes of the Nazis. But it's easy to slip into shorthand - "Germany," "the French," etc. I would only repeat that I believe that the ordinary citizens of the European countries are proud patriots. It's the elite that I loathe.

BTW, I don't think Svensson's views are quite from 'outside the UK' since he says he's lived in London for 24 years. Indeed I assume he's a British citizen, because he says he's going to vote in the referendum.

All, I am not forgetting the part played by our allies. The only reason I spoke about the British fighting in the war is because it's the British who are being accused of being isolationists, Little Englanders, racists etc.

correct on pretty much everything. I had to endure journalistic manure from the three dailies for decades now and I find it puzzling that they continue to get away with it. Although a potential hot potato, I think that we do need some kind of press standards commission of some kind. The three dailies have an agenda to spin every story that is somehow EU related to ensure that the headline is Anti-EU instead of reporting the actual story.

For example: two (or three) weeks ago, some minister was on the Andrew Marr show and stated that the EU would be powerless to prevent Turkey from joining the EU. Andrew Marr pointed out that the UK had a veto on new members joining but she actually stated that "this is not correct, the UK does not have a veto". It then took about 3 hours for about 25 politicians to point out to her that the UK DOES have a Veto, so Her statement was not correct.

Fast-forward 18 hours and I picked up a copy of the Daily Express to see how they were reporting it. In fact, I was actually expecting them on not reporting on it at all because this comment had massively backfired on the Leave campaign the day before, but again, I under-estimated the Daily Express. Their headline was:

"Minister: We have no veto to stop Turkey from joining the EU! (full story on page5)".

Now this is actually correct because they have cleverly used the quote from the minister but they are suggesting to the reader that the EU did not have a veto, which is of course incorrect.

On we go to Page 5 to read the "full story". Here, the headline was "Cameron faces backlash from angry Tory-members over publically scalding own minister". which may be true, but again, this is not the story here because the real story is that the minister made an incorrect statement. It was not until paragraph 7 that the Daily Express reported (in small-print after several pages of hysterically screaming headlines) that the UK actually DOES have a veto.

So here we see an example of how the Daily Express is systematically bending every single press standard in order to purposefully communicate a wrong version of the actual story.

This has been going on for many many years and this was left unchecked by this as well as previous governments as it would not create a problem. However, now that there is a referendum, this is suddenly turning into a huge issue. One that can no longer be addressed in the short time between announcing the referendum and actually holding the referendum.

Back to the "Racist" issue: I am calling out Farage and Johnson for making racist comments and presenting them in a way that makes such comments socially acceptable. This does not mean that the Leave Campaign is inherently racist but this is a strategy that is designed to extract maximum impact with complete disregard for the consequences such a strategy might have.

[curious4]

Read the other day that even if a majority vote to leave, the government is not bound to follow. Will try to find the article.

C4

[Robert]

Julie, my advice is to buy more time to ponder the issue, by voting Leave - you will surely be ordered to vote again.

[GUT]

Hi Robert,

Agree totally - and you're spot on about the 'elites' who seem to want a federal Europe which I totally oppose.

In welcoming views from outside the Uk, I was referring to people like Rosella and others on this thread from the USA and other places who have expressed views.

What I think is spoiling the debate and clouding my decision about which way to vote is the way the way the debate has been high-jacked by extremists on both sides, but especially those on the extreme right.

It seems pretty common that most debates are centred around the extremists.

[Limehouse]

Hi Rosella

I too feel bad about Australia and New Zealand. I had no say in our joining the Common Market - that was done without asking the public what they thought about it. In the referendum that followed, in 1975, I voted to leave the Common Market, but the leavers were outvoted two to one.

Hi Julie

I'm not blaming the whole of the German nation for Hitler. One can argue back and forth about the precise level of complicity of the Germans in the crimes of the Nazis. But it's easy to slip into shorthand - "Germany," "the French," etc. I would only repeat that I believe that the ordinary citizens of the European countries are proud patriots. It's the elite that I loathe.

BTW, I don't think Svensson's views are quite from 'outside the UK' since he says he's lived in London for 24 years. Indeed I assume he's a British citizen, because he says he's going to vote in the referendum.

All, I am not forgetting the part played by our allies. The only reason I spoke about the British fighting in the war is because it's the British who are being accused of being isolationists, Little Englanders, racists etc.

Hi Robert,

Agree totally - and you're spot on about the 'elites' who seem to want a federal Europe which I totally oppose.

In welcoming views from outside the Uk, I was referring to people like Rosella and others on this thread from the USA and other places who have expressed views.

What I think is spoiling the debate and clouding my decision about which way to vote is the way the way the debate has been high-jacked by extremists on both sides, but especially those on the extreme right.

[Robert]

Hi Rosella

I too feel bad about Australia and New Zealand. I had no say in our joining the Common Market - that was done without asking the public what they thought about it. In the referendum that followed, in 1975, I voted to leave the Common Market, but the leavers were outvoted two to one.

Hi Julie

I'm not blaming the whole of the German nation for Hitler. One can argue back and forth about the precise level of complicity of the Germans in the crimes of the Nazis. But it's easy to slip into shorthand - "Germany," "the French," etc. I would only repeat that I believe that the ordinary citizens of the European countries are proud patriots. It's the elite that I loathe.

BTW, I don't think Svensson's views are quite from 'outside the UK' since he says he's lived in London for 24 years. Indeed I assume he's a British citizen, because he says he's going to vote in the referendum.

All, I am not forgetting the part played by our allies. The only reason I spoke about the British fighting in the war is because it's the British who are being accused of being isolationists, Little Englanders, racists etc.

[Limehouse]

What about the Russians?

Though, as an ex Pom, I have been watching the debate from afar and have come to the conclusion if I were still a Brit I'd vote to stay. However, I don't have to live there and make that decision, thank God!

I will say this though, decades ago Britain joined the EU without as much as a backward glance at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had stood beside them in two world wars. Britain joining destroyed Tasmania's apple trade and greatly harmed Oz and NZ meat and dairy exports. So if Britain does leave and it hurts Britain's exports, maybe it's karma. A long time coming, but still...

Excellent point Rosella - and having been in the fresh foods trade back in the 1970s I saw how superior, quality fruit from down under was replaced by rubbish from France. I also saw the almost total destruction of the Winward Islands banana trade whereby the UK's long-term agreement to buy almost the whole crop from the island year after year was over-ruled by the EU which demanded the banana market be opened up to imports from South America. Of course, the Winward Islands had very little other trade to fall back on and the people suffered greatly.

[Limehouse]

Sorry to mention the war, Svensson - it obviously pains you - but it's a good job you weren't around when it was happening. You'd have burst a blood vessel. All those Little Englanders, Little Scotlanders, Little Welsh and Little Irish going off to die so that Little Britain could govern herself - they must all have been racists, right? I'm surprised we're allowed to remember them once a year. I dare say the EU will put a stop to that in due course.

Populism? You mean, saying things that people like? Or giving people what they want? Smells too much like democracy. Can't have that.

The EU has been rumbled. I saw through it 40 years ago. Some poor devils never will. But I believe that there is a real chance that we can finally escape from this impudent fraud.

Those are very valid points Robert and I always respect your views greatly, but you cannot really blame the whole of the German nation for the actions of Hitler, his officers and the people who hung onto him because they had an agenda of their own.

Remember, Hitler did not just kill his enemies, he killed millions of his own and the people of Germany suffered greatly because of it.

[Limehouse]

Hi,

I am actually shocked about the way this discussion chosen to go with the Anti-German, "let's mention the war" mentality in from Page 1 onwards. 3 Weeks ago, Boris Johnson compared the EU to Hitler. Pretty much one of the most offensive statements in recent years. This is the kind of populist right-wing demagoguery that we are now all too used to from people like Donald Trump, Jean Marie Le Pen, Geert Wilders and a number of others.

Also the accusation that Germany's war-aim was to create a custom zone is simply ridiculous. I dig my history where I can but this is certainly something that I have never heard of. Maybe I should just point out here that it was in fact the British Empire that was built on trade and war (and a few trade-wars thrown in for good measure), but this obviously does not fit the narrative, does it?

But following Boris Johnson's Hitler comment, the fact that Jacob Reece-Mogg actually came out and defended this comment was probably even more disturbing. This entire debate is legitimising racism and populism that would have simply been unthinkable here in the UK only 5 years ago and this is something that nobody is really talking about.

I am of German descent and I have been living in London for 24 years. I follow the news in the UK as well as in Germany and it was always apparent that parts of the UK press is systematically hostile towards the EU and Germany for the simple reason that they appeal to a particular audience who are willing to buy the latest edition of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Daily Telegraph. The narrative has always been a cash-cow that was lucrative enough to be maintained. The EU actually has a Website ("Euromyths") that has a real job on its hands to correct one horror story after another from the UK papers. The problem is that the UK press was allowed to run riot with this systematic misinformation for years and years, so as soon as Cameron called for the Referendum, it was too late to have a serious and balanced debate on the subject. I think the UK will vote to leave the EU and it will be based on false information that the electorate have received for years (not that Cameron was ever capable of setting the record straight. Like someone mentioned, "cometh the hour, cometh the mouse").

I will vote to remain, simply because there is not one argument of the leave campaign that has convinced me to vote leave. Not a single one.

This vote is not about geo-political decisions, if the EU has a "sufficient share of World-wide GDP" or similar. Besides, this is impossible to trend as the size of the EU keeps changing and the sizes of its individual economies do too. This vote is about an ever more interconnected world and how to deal with it. Is the UKL going to withdraw from it and take a step , literally, backwards, or is it going to engage and attempt to take the bull by the horns?

Finally, the problem with the Leave compagin is that much of their arguments are basically lies that they are hell-bent on perpetuating even though they have been corrected and called out many times over. They hage even been asked to stop claiming that the UK pays 350 million every week to the EU because this figure is simply not correct. There are countless examples of lies and misrepresentations that would go beyond this post/thread/forum but a couple of more points if I may:

- the Leave Campaign is headed by a Opportunist career politician Boris Johnson who is the UK's own version of Donald Trump. He has flip-flopped on EU issues in order to advance his own career. His side-kick is Michael Gove, a failed Minister for Schools whose ONLY policy was to attack teachers and school in a pretty despicable manner. Still in the Leave-camp but hated by all other protagonists in the EU referendum is Nigel Farrage and his pack of open racists, closet racists, mysogonists and common garden weirdos. So that's already a gang and a half, but nothing compared to:

- Trump and Putin and supporting the Leave campaign.

- the rest of Europe is pretty much at the point where they had enough of the UK's Primadonna behaviour for the last 20 years. They want the UK to stay as it would be a stronger union but if you have been called a "cesspit of stinking such and such" and have been compared to Hitler, I don't think that the UK will get any sort of favours from the EU whatsoever. Any sort of trade agreement will be on the EU's terms or there will be no agreement, so the entire "we don't want to get pushed around by the EU any longer" exercise will be self-defeating.

- I 100% agree with John Major when he let it rip last sunday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36454782

- Someone mentioned Norway as an example. The thing is that Norway is a very specialised economy around shipping and oil. the UK on he other hand is a very diverse trade, services and goods-based econonmy. Besides, Norway are paying almost as much as the UK per capita to have access to the EU market and still need to realistically consider and many of the EU regulations in order to continue trading with the other 500 million customers in that market. Again, such a model would mean that a Leave vote would be self defeating.

- the UK and the US have nothing in common apart from a language.

So, rant over. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and I love the site.

Some very interesting points there Svennson - and probably the best 'Remain' discourse I've so far read.

I was very reluctant to join this debate as, in the past, I've been very sorely attacked on this site during political discussions - but it is very valuable to read the views of people from outside the UK.

I am still undecided - mainly because I do not trust politicians like Cameron, Johnson, Farrage and even Corbyn to present an impartial case for staying/leaving or even and honest one.

The thing that worries me most about leaving is that it will almost certainly mean having BJ as Prime Minister and, as well as thinking he is a jackass, he does not seem to have a 'leave plan' - so will the country be thrown into utter chaos within five years?