EU Vote

[Ginger]

Probably all the peoples of Europe feel patriotically towards their own countries. But the so-called elites - well, they're different. They have no countries or loyalties or principles. They are basically parasites.

Exactly. This is why the regulars from both American parties are so horrified by Trump.

[Robert]

Hi FM

Yes, the French wanted long-term security and the Germans wanted international respectability. I think also that the French resented perceived slights by the Americans during the war, and set about creating a political bloc which they hoped would one day challenge America.

When I say the French, I don't mean the French people. Probably all the peoples of Europe feel patriotically towards their own countries. But the so-called elites - well, they're different. They have no countries or loyalties or principles. They are basically parasites.

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Churchill made a mistake in 1945, but it didn't affect his place in history, which is unassailable.

In the general election of that year Churchill, despite his wartime service and despite our still being at war with Japan, was voted out of office. One of the main reasons was his absolute refusal to countenance the Labour Party's plans for a welfare state. The public disagreed with him - they felt they had earned that much.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well if Britain votes no. I hypothesise we will be economically less powerful. Of course if Britain votes to leave the EU I will be either proven correct or incorrect.

Why exactly would we be 'economically less powerful'?

And, in the event it turned out to be the case then it could be a good thing to tighten our belts and cut down on waste.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Jeff

Strange that you should mention that, because in the 1960s British Prime Minister Harold Wilson did have talks with American officials over whether Britain could become the 51st state. The talks were only exploratory and didn't lead anywhere. It is not known what the British people would have thought of this idea, or even whether they'd have had any say in the matter.

I think it's obviously true that the British 'get on better' with the US than with most Europeans. And I think the French in particular have always doubted our European credentials, pointing to our friendship with the USA (something the French are decidedly sniffy about) and our traditional worldwide seafaring history. When we leave the EU - and hopefully it will be very soon now - we will have been guilty of wasting the Europeans' time. For this our politicians are more to blame than the ordinary people are, as our politicians have consistently lied about the true aims of the Common Market/EEC /EU.

The European project was never an idealistic one. It had nothing to do with peace or fraternity. It was a scheme hatched by six countries, all of whom had been defeated in one way or another and realised that their place in the sun had gone for ever. It was their way of trying to make sure that they were still big players on the world stage. It is a vanity project.

It was a scheme hatched by one country: the French.

I should say I'm not anti-French. I'm pretty much neutral to the country. It's not a place I want to visit as I prefer Central and Eastern Europe when I cross the channel. The French have an interesting history, some things positive and other things not so positive from my perspective.

But, the whole European Union thing was borne out of fear on the part of the French believing they needed to lock in the Germans to prevent the fear and invasion that had persisted between the two nations over some time. They always intended it to be a political union, not solely an economic one. We're an entirely different people because of geography. We're an island people who have always looked outwards for the answers unlike say the Germans who have a history of looking inwards.

As for the United States, they are undoubtedly our natural allies and the Europeans simply aren't. We are superficially different to the Americans clearly, we carry ourselves differently, but in terms of how we think the Americans are the closest thing we have to natural allies - along with the Commonwealth.

The ideas that underpin English political history are similar to the ideas that underpin the United States version, and ideas are pretty much everything.

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

In Britain, Tony Blair has never lived down the weapons of mass destruction business. He is a semi-pariah over here. A report soon to be published (the Chilcot report) is expected to be fairly damning.

Speaking personally, although I wouldn't want to live in America (I only want to live in England) I was exposed to Americana from the time I was born, via TV and music. Some of it may have been unrepresentative, but the overall effect was to make (some) American things seem quite natural to me. There are still things I'm not too keen on - Country & Western music for instance - and some of your habits are weird, but there you go. One thing I always found strange was how Americans would hang up the phone without saying goodbye or even knowing that the person at the other end had finished speaking. I wonder if this scenario ever occurred :

PHONE RINGS

COLONEL : Colonel Smith.

CAPTAIN : Captain Jones here, colonel. Intelligence reports there'll be an attack on our left flank...

COLONEL : Right. (HANGS UP)

CAPTAIN : ...but it will be a feint. The real attack will be on our right flank....hallo?...hallo?...

Hi Robert,

It does happen in this country with the phones. And Colonel Smith will soon regret his hasty hang-up action.

Actually I like some country and western music, but I can't understand the popularity of "Rap", which I tend to see as a type of music meant as a way of attacking the establishment (predominantly caucasian and European) and some of it's institutions (i.e., the police). I don't like painting myself as a reactionary or too conservative in nature, but there just is too much "Gansta" in the lyrics, not to mention a sexually obsessed anti-feminism in the tunes. Yet it is still the biggest popular music movement of today. Go figure that.

As for Blair, I can only think of one other politician who ever blew himself up like that. He's a Canadian who was twice Prime Minister in the 20th Century, but few remember him at all, probably even in Canada - Arthur Meighan. Meighan had been the right hand man to the World War I Prime Minister Robert Borden as Attorney-General, and had pushed very reactionary legislation against foreign born citizens, suffragettes, and French-Canadians (there was an assumption that the Quebeckers had not been as supportive of the war effort as the Canadians of English background). So he was not well liked when he was the chosen successor to Borden in 1920, after he had smashed a major city-wide strike in Winnipeg. He was Prime Minister about a year and a half when replaced by the man who'd put a coda to his career, William Lyon Mackenzie King. Although Meighan was intelligent and a highly gifted speaker and debater, he never realized that what he thought was good for Canada everyone else who counted might not like. In 1922 there was a show-down in the Anatolian peninsula at Chanak between Great Britain and Turkey (now under Kemal Ataturk) that came close to war. As it turned out the British general (Tim Harrington) in charge at Chanak and Ataturk cooperated to difuse the situation. But in the meantime, while Prime Minister King saw no reason to get involved in this mess, Meighan made a speech to the effect of "when Britain called for our support, we should have answered, "Ready, Aye Ready!!" We stand beside you!!" The speech went down like a lead balloon with the war weary Canadians (I don't know if you are aware, but although more American troops died in the twelve months that the U.S. troops were in Europe from late 1917 -1918, Canada lost (from 1914 - 1918) more troops in that period, and (percentagewise regarding their population as a whole and that of the U.S. as a whole) more of their population!). Meighan was too self-satisfied with his pompous greater empire vision to see this. He would be Prime Minister again in 1926 for a big three months (in a situation that King fully was able to play around with) and then lost real power for the rest of his career. So it is not only Blair who can bungle like that.

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

In Britain, Tony Blair has never lived down the weapons of mass destruction business. He is a semi-pariah over here. A report soon to be published (the Chilcot report) is expected to be fairly damning.

Speaking personally, although I wouldn't want to live in America (I only want to live in England) I was exposed to Americana from the time I was born, via TV and music. Some of it may have been unrepresentative, but the overall effect was to make (some) American things seem quite natural to me. There are still things I'm not too keen on - Country & Western music for instance - and some of your habits are weird, but there you go. One thing I always found strange was how Americans would hang up the phone without saying goodbye or even knowing that the person at the other end had finished speaking. I wonder if this scenario ever occurred :

PHONE RINGS

COLONEL : Colonel Smith.

CAPTAIN : Captain Jones here, colonel. Intelligence reports there'll be an attack on our left flank...

COLONEL : Right. (HANGS UP)

CAPTAIN : ...but it will be a feint. The real attack will be on our right flank....hallo?...hallo?...

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

Strange that you should mention that, because in the 1960s British Prime Minister Harold Wilson did have talks with American officials over whether Britain could become the 51st state. The talks were only exploratory and didn't lead anywhere. It is not known what the British people would have thought of this idea, or even whether they'd have had any say in the matter.

I think it's obviously true that the British 'get on better' with the US than with most Europeans. And I think the French in particular have always doubted our European credentials, pointing to our friendship with the USA (something the French are decidedly sniffy about) and our traditional worldwide seafaring history. When we leave the EU - and hopefully it will be very soon now - we will have been guilty of wasting the Europeans' time. For this our politicians are more to blame than the ordinary people are, as our politicians have consistently lied about the true aims of the Common Market/EEC /EU.

The European project was never an idealistic one. It had nothing to do with peace or fraternity. It was a scheme hatched by six countries, all of whom had been defeated in one way or another and realised that their place in the sun had gone for ever. It was their way of trying to make sure that they were still big players on the world stage. It is a vanity project.

Hi Robert,

Actually it is funny about Wilson considering the idea of a 51st state relationship. Apparently several countries have considered similar ideas. When I was in college in the 1970s I knew a fellow student from Guatamala, who informed me that there was a political party there that pushed for becoming part of the United States. It is possible that this country's party was created in the aftermath of the 1954 CIA coup there, but it was the only time I ever heard of it.

Britain and the U.S. have a close relationship (since they last nearly clashed in 1895 over the Venezuela/British Guiana border dispute), but it has had slumps at times. In 1956 the U.S. refused to support Britain, France, and Israel on the Suez Canal seizure. Also it has sometimes been carried too far. I refer to the Iraqi invasion in 2002, where it was loyal and friendly by Britain's government, but it did not translate too well in Britain after awhile. Interesting to compare that with the reaction of Pierre Trudeau's government in Canada over our Vietnam policy. One's respect for the senior Trudeau is still high. One's respect for the British Prime Minister in 2002 is more questionable.

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Strange that you should mention that, because in the 1960s British Prime Minister Harold Wilson did have talks with American officials over whether Britain could become the 51st state. The talks were only exploratory and didn't lead anywhere. It is not known what the British people would have thought of this idea, or even whether they'd have had any say in the matter.

I think it's obviously true that the British 'get on better' with the US than with most Europeans. And I think the French in particular have always doubted our European credentials, pointing to our friendship with the USA (something the French are decidedly sniffy about) and our traditional worldwide seafaring history. When we leave the EU - and hopefully it will be very soon now - we will have been guilty of wasting the Europeans' time. For this our politicians are more to blame than the ordinary people are, as our politicians have consistently lied about the true aims of the Common Market/EEC /EU.

The European project was never an idealistic one. It had nothing to do with peace or fraternity. It was a scheme hatched by six countries, all of whom had been defeated in one way or another and realised that their place in the sun had gone for ever. It was their way of trying to make sure that they were still big players on the world stage. It is a vanity project.

[Mayerling]

This is a hard enough problem. The Empire is gone, and one sees the threads of the Commonwealth frayed at the ends. But I'm not so certain that the EU membership is the answer at all. In fact I'm not sure if it is Europe's future.

Everything always looks better on paper than in reality. Reading "The Wealth of Nations" makes one think unfettered capitalism is great - and it is great, but it leaves many people at the bottom. Reading "Capital" one sees the inequities, but the so-called solution of Marx was never more than some vague ideals which got horribly twisted in the 20th Century (and which still have some lingering dangers in China, Russia and elsewhere). Everytime I see some new brilliant idea espoused, I keep realizing it is a brilliant idea of one of mankind, and nothing ever made by man was perfect. There is always an overlooked imperfection, just like the "perfect murders" in Agatha Christie have overlooked flaws that unravel them.

As for Britain...well I keep recalling what Bismarck supposedly said: "The one diplomatic fact that must be kept in mind is that the peoples of the United States and Great Britain both speak english." I suppose he meant that as we have a common language and heritage it meant we have a unity other powers lack.

On the other hand, George Bernard Shaw once said that the British and the United States are two nations divided by a common language. Shaw also suggested a scenario which may lead us nowhere but can end my comments here. In his 1930 play, "The Apple Cart", King Magnus of Great Britain receives a letter from the President of the U.S. (one President Bossfield) that he and Congress have decided to reunify the British Empire and the U.S. by annexing the Empire, and moving the King and his court to Washington, D.C. When the Prime Minister (Proteus) and the cabinet return for a conference with the King, Magnus mentions this offer from the U.S. Proteus turns red and says he has heard of it, and that he'll move the capital to Ottawa, Sydney, or Cape Town first!

Jeff

[John Wheat]

It was your point. You could support it with a spot of reasoning?

Well if Britain votes no. I hypothesise we will be economically less powerful. Of course if Britain votes to leave the EU I will be either proven correct or incorrect.

[Fleetwood Mac]

So are you saying as an Island we have more power on our own?

It was your point. You could support it with a spot of reasoning?

[Robert]

The Greeks would be worse off on there own.

They are on their own.

[John Wheat]

How exactly does this power that comes with being part of the European Union manifest itself?

So are you saying as an Island we have more power on our own?

[John Wheat]

Bullshit when will people realise we are an Island with an economy that is miniscule when compared to China and the U.S. We would be more powerful in a united Europe.

Tell it to the Greeks.

The Greeks would be worse off on there own.