A6 Rebooted

[Herlock Sholmes]

What I find very interesting is Nudds's description of Hanratty's voice as sounding 'possibly Irish'.
Trevor Dutton, in his impressive statement to Abergele police on February 9th 1962, describes the voice of the young man
who tried to sell him a gold watch on Rhyl High Street on August 23rd 1961 as sounding 'possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two'.

i wonder how many young men with Irish/Cockney accents would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl's High Street on August 23rd 1961 ???

Here is Mr Dutton's statement [copied from Bob Woffinden's book]

Did Hanratty have any trace of Irish in his accent Sherlock?

[cobalt]

To be fair to Nudds, his physical description of Hanratty seems pretty much on the mark. I assume this description could not have been coached since at that time Hanratty was not on the police radar. The portable radio is an interesting detail, if true. Why would Hanratty be lugging that around if he was setting out to do a spot of burglary, far less a hold up? For background music to set the scene? Valerie Storie did not mention it so what happened to the radio?

[Sherlock Houses]

What I find very interesting is Nudds's description of Hanratty's voice as sounding 'possibly Irish'.
Trevor Dutton, in his impressive statement to Abergele police on February 9th 1962, describes the voice of the young man
who tried to sell him a gold watch on Rhyl High Street on August 23rd 1961 as sounding 'possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two'.

i wonder how many young men with Irish/Cockney accents would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl's High Street on August 23rd 1961 ???

Here is Mr Dutton's statement [copied from Bob Woffinden's book]

[Sherlock Houses]

As an inveterate liar, police informer, thief and prison grass nothing said by Nudds (or his partner) is helpful in understanding the events at the Vienna Hotel. He was clearly a slippery customer who ingratiated himself with the powers that be, whether they were criminal (which might explain his first statement) or legal (his contradictory second and third statements.)

It's interesting to note, Cobalt, that the judge, William Gorman, in his summing up said something to the effect that Nudds was not incapable of telling the truth, despite the contradictions in his police statements. It is indeed difficult to distinguish truth from fiction when dealing with Nudds. At the end of his second statement he does very accurately describe Ryan [Hanratty] and Durrant [Alphon] as shown on page 68 of Paul Foot's book below.......

[NickB]

After Nudds second statement he was allowed to go home and tell his partner Snell what to say in her interview. That is not normal police practice! After she backed up his story the police then re-interviewed Galves, but she did not change her account which conflicted with theirs. So if Nudds and Snell has not made third statements revoking the second there would still have been Galves dissenting statement. Nudds and Snell were interviewed separately when they revoked the second statement.

The police also suppressed statements by the owner and manager of the Broadway House Hotel who gave Alphon an alibi.

In the 2002 Appeal both sides agreed that the DNA evidence exonerated Alphon.

[cobalt]

As an inveterate liar, police informer, thief and prison grass nothing said by Nudds (or his partner) is helpful in understanding the events at the Vienna Hotel. He was clearly a slippery customer who ingratiated himself with the powers that be, whether they were criminal (which might explain his first statement) or legal (his contradictory second and third statements.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes it does. However this was fully disclosed at the trial and therefore would have been part of the jury's deliberations.

But this is where Stickler skims over what I was referring to above as questionable police behaviour. One of the grounds of appeal in 2002 was that the police tried to frame Alphon, and it is difficult to argue with that description. I believe there was pressure on Nudds to produce his second statement, which led to Alphon being sought. Acott then made a presumed 'We got him' visit to Valerie inferring that the murderer was definitely on the line-up. This doesn't excuse Valerie, but gives some context.

I was wondering about Nudds yesterday Nick after I’d read the section of the book dealing with events at The Vienna. I wasn’t really convinced about a motive for him to have wanted to give the police Alphon on a plate via his second statement. The suggestion appears to be (at least from Stickler) that Nudds would somehow be getting into their ‘good books’ which might help him in some way as he was unpopular amongst the criminal fraternity for grassing someone up while he was in prison. But if the police asked or pressured him into it?

It hasn’t been mentioned in the book yet but, from my fallible memory, didn’t Nudds change his story again and didn’t the third version exonerate Alphon. If I’m misremembering ignore the point Nick. But if the 3rd version did exonerate Alphon wouldn’t that pretty much disprove ‘pressure from the police’ suggestion?

[NickB]

must leave us with at least some doubt about any future ID that she made?

Yes it does. However this was fully disclosed at the trial and therefore would have been part of the jury's deliberations.

But this is where Stickler skims over what I was referring to above as questionable police behaviour. One of the grounds of appeal in 2002 was that the police tried to frame Alphon, and it is difficult to argue with that description. I believe there was pressure on Nudds to produce his second statement, which led to Alphon being sought. Acott then made a presumed 'We got him' visit to Valerie inferring that the murderer was definitely on the line-up. This doesn't excuse Valerie, but gives some context.

[moste]

They would have known what Kerr was going to say from his written statement, so I don't see any advantage to the police in destroying notes containing what he was going to say anyway. I see it as a bit of theatre from Sherrard, and it played well with his general theme of dodgy police action - some of which I think was questionable.

I've dug out my Stickler and on the second page he seems to be unaware, or has forgotten, that Valerie wrote that her parents knew about her affair with Mike.

Well, I’m sorry, but the police knowing what Kerr was going to say and so didn’t need his note, is not acceptable.They mislaid vital information in the form of a very important exhibit.’ Keep cutting the police slack’

, seemed to be the flavour of the case throughout

Sherrards efforts were very poor , An 11 person jury? Losing a vital wrongly picked ID line up man? Not elaborating on this wrongly picked man when cross questioning Storie ? Not objecting strongly enough when the venue of the trial was not to be at the Old Bailey?
I don’t believe there was any theatre in Sherrards performance . Rather he was nervous as this was his first capital case, personally I don’t think he was up to it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just read the section of the Sticker book on the Alphon ID parades. I don’t know what everyone else thinks but from my own point of view I can’t help thinking that the fact that she picked out a man that definitely wasn’t involved and who didn’t really match her own description must leave us with at least some doubt about any future ID that she made? Would she have picked out Hanratty had he been in the parade too?

[Sherlock Houses]

Finished watching the channel 4 programme , Valerie explains leaving the cornfield then on to the A6 road , loads of important stuff left out which in my opinion leaves her story ,to say the least âWantingâ. But this ,it has to be said is a perfect exercise in how to portray a person as a guilty as hell individual.
Interesting question, I didnât realise a Chief Superintendent Ian Russell spent a year with a team on deciphering the entire case. Chief Superintendent Roger Mathews did exactly the same. I wonder if they conferred, ? You know , compared notes as it were.

I watched that Channel 4 programme earlier today Moste. My first viewing of it and for me it left much to be desired .You're quite correct in thinking of it as "a perfect exercise in how to portray a person as a guilty as hell individual." A more suitable title would have been "The Warped Truth".

[Herlock Sholmes]

They would have known what Kerr was going to say from his written statement, so I don't see any advantage to the police in destroying notes containing what he was going to say anyway. I see it as a bit of theatre from Sherrard, and it played well with his general theme of dodgy police action - some of which I think was questionable.

I've dug out my Stickler and on the second page he seems to be unaware, or has forgotten, that Valerie wrote that her parents knew about her affair with Mike.

I’d speculate that some junior saw the sheet of paper and noticed that it was connected to the road survey work and even if he’d looked on the back and seen the writing he might have noticed the registration number and just assumed that these were notes to do with Kerr’s work and thrown them in the bin. The police would be embarrassed when asked about it and an embarrassed looking force and a missing piece of evidence would be a gift for the defence.

[NickB]

They would have known what Kerr was going to say from his written statement, so I don't see any advantage to the police in destroying notes containing what he was going to say anyway. I see it as a bit of theatre from Sherrard, and it played well with his general theme of dodgy police action - some of which I think was questionable.

I've dug out my Stickler and on the second page he seems to be unaware, or has forgotten, that Valerie wrote that her parents knew about her affair with Mike.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Kerr initially thought that Valerie said her name was Mary so there were communication difficulties, which is understandable given the situation. In the more stable conditions at hospital she was recorded as saying the hair was dark. She also said that the gunman had given the name 'Jim'. So you can believe either that Kerr misheard or that Valerie shortly afterwards changed her description.

She did well to speak coherently under the circumstances Nick. That she perhaps might have been less than clear or harder to hear at times can hardly be surprising.

[NickB]

Kerr initially thought that Valerie said her name was Mary so there were communication difficulties, which is understandable given the situation. In the more stable conditions at hospital she was recorded as saying the hair was dark. She also said that the gunman had given the name 'Jim'. So you can believe either that Kerr misheard or that Valerie shortly afterwards changed her description.