A6 Rebooted

[moste]

The puzzlement as to where police presence was centred has always been an issue for me. Speaking for example as to the importance of Gregsten and Stories last visit to the Old Station Inn, It would seem to me that the investigation should include any snippets of information that may be gleaned from the pub regulars. Did for example Ms. Lanz list other pundits that may well have been on the premises say between 8 and 10 pm? We’re there regulars who’s memories could be tapped? Did the police have an officer greeting arrivers at that crucial time frame, for say at least a couple of weeks ? If so Ms. Lanz would have had a few words to say to the various interviewers of the intensity of the investigation in and around her establishment. But Alas, it seems ,not a bit of it . All of the info that the police believed to be of any interest to the case appears to be affixed to Ms.Stories statements , as ambiguous and wobbly as they were, little else it seems was of any importance.

[ansonman]

I am sure NickB or Spitfire can correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Mrs. Lanz was so precise in her memory about which evenings Alphon had been in her premises. She gave a few accounts I think, to Fox and Foot some years later, and probably these were not exactly the same. Unfortunately, although Mrs. Lanz claimed to have reported her sightings to the police there is no known record of a statement having been taken from her. Maybe Matthews found out different.

However in a case plagued by conflicting witness accounts I would place great weight on Mrs. Lanz’s ID. Bar owners by necessity have a good memory for faces. She had seen this man on a number of occasions for a reasonable period of time and presumably served him over the counter. She had no obvious motive for placing her establishment into the mix of the A6 Case.

If we accept Mrs. Lanz’s ID, whatever the evening she believed Alphon was there, then the level of coincidence simply becomes overwhelming. When Alphon first came to police attention it was on the ‘Padola’ basis of acting oddly in a hotel. That is to say he had already attracted police attention BEFORE the police knew about cartridge cases in the Vienna Hotel where Alphon had been, or BEFORE they were alerted to his being an occasional patron of the premises where Gregsten and Ms. Storie had been on the evening of the crime.

Woofinden P. 298:

"She recognised him (Alphon) she said in a statement to the police, as "a man who had previously been in the bar. I cannot remember when I have seen him previous to this; I just know that I have seen him before"

[cobalt]

I am sure NickB or Spitfire can correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Mrs. Lanz was so precise in her memory about which evenings Alphon had been in her premises. She gave a few accounts I think, to Fox and Foot some years later, and probably these were not exactly the same. Unfortunately, although Mrs. Lanz claimed to have reported her sightings to the police there is no known record of a statement having been taken from her. Maybe Matthews found out different.

However in a case plagued by conflicting witness accounts I would place great weight on Mrs. Lanz’s ID. Bar owners by necessity have a good memory for faces. She had seen this man on a number of occasions for a reasonable period of time and presumably served him over the counter. She had no obvious motive for placing her establishment into the mix of the A6 Case.

If we accept Mrs. Lanz’s ID, whatever the evening she believed Alphon was there, then the level of coincidence simply becomes overwhelming. When Alphon first came to police attention it was on the ‘Padola’ basis of acting oddly in a hotel. That is to say he had already attracted police attention BEFORE the police knew about cartridge cases in the Vienna Hotel where Alphon had been, or BEFORE they were alerted to his being an occasional patron of the premises where Gregsten and Ms. Storie had been on the evening of the crime.

[NickB]

Some chapters of the Stickler book are free to view on Google Books ...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lXEyEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq

[moste]

Hello, I notice a new book about this case has been released called The Long Silence: The Story of Hanratty and the A6 murder by Valerie Storie, the Woman who Lived to Tell the Tale written by Paul Stickler.
A Freedom of Information request has also been submitted requesting the release of the Matthews report into the case here https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...coming-1590935

Finally, I have been trying to get hold of the works on the case by Norma Buddle, can anyone help me out?

I have a copy you can have , pm me , I’ll send it to you.

[moste]

Alphon was in the line up with the airman when Storie picked out the wrong man. I wonder if she thought that Alphon looked familiar, after all , he was in the Station Inn the night they were abducted. Following on from previous post, Mary Lantz claimed Alphon to have been in the pub, till around 9 pm. On the night of the 22nd. Of August. and more or less followed the couple out when they left. Why would Woffinden not question Alphon on this , and report on the outcome in his book, regardless of his answer?

[moste]

I have ordered a hard copy of the book, which reminds me of a paragraph in Valerie's 2002 Daily Mail interview:

"She even said she might return to the 'copious notes' and piles of paper that have accumulated over the years and write her own book about her nightmare."

The non-knicker evidence is often dismissed as circumstantial, but when you put it together (cartridge cases, handkerchief, calling himself Jim etc.) it means that either Hanratty did it or he was framed. Yet the books that claim he didn't do it hardly touch on the reason why, and mechanisms for how, he was framed.

---

No they don’t touch on it do they? I believe the reason to be that , investigative journalists distance themselves from the label ‘Conspiracy Theorist. I’ve never understood why, if someone believes they have seen and heard enough to conclude that there is a strong possibility that a conspiracy exists ,there is no occasion to consider that person a crack pot . Any evidence that points toward the possibility of a conspiracy to my way of thinking should be thoroughly investigated . I have mentioned before Foot and Woffinden , are disappointing in this regard
On another note, I fail to see why, when a person highly suspected is placed on an identification line and then is not picked out, should be completely ruled out . I mean let’s face it , Alphon may have been the guilty party , Storie failed to pick him out, what else is new?

[NickB]

The book appears to confirm that the police interviewed George Pratt at 72 Wood Lane before 26-Sep-61, as I've always suspected they must have, and that therefore there was no miraculous discovery between visiting him in the morning and the Hanrattys in the afternoon.

It claims the Irish police were contacted on 19th September ("Please make all enquiries at Dublin airport and elsewhere to identify and trace the man J Ryan ... ") so by then they must have got the information from Pratt about the rental car and established it had been abandoned at the airport.

[cobalt]

NickB,

You might have also added the appearance of detectives at the Swiss Cottage shopping arcade shortly before the discovery of bullets at the Vienna Hotel, at a time when James Hanratty did not seem to be anywhere on the police radar as a suspect.

I appreciate you are referring specifically to books regarding the issue of being ‘framed.’ For Paul Foot, whose politics I largely share, the system of justice in the UK was reason enough to ‘frame’ a petty criminal from the underclass. But that’s a very broad brush approach and not of much value on this particular site.

Since published authors have evaded your questions I will give my meagre offerings. Why was Hanratty ‘framed?’ I think he was used as a red herring to drag the police away from the guilty party or parties at a time when the investigation was stalling. There was a danger that a fresh look at the case might bring about a new angle of investigation- perhaps along the lines of a ‘gas meter job’- and Hanratty was an available ‘patsy.’ I cannot believe the plan was ever for Hanratty to actually be convicted and executed and that this caused some trauma to Dixie France and Peter Alphon.

Which kind of answers the question of ‘mechanisms.’ Hanratty did not choose his friends well in so far as most of them were criminals like himself. Even the hotel he booked into was being managed by a crook and police informer. Being pretty low down the feeding chain he was, as Alphon put it, ‘expendable.’ That meant fellow criminals, no doubt in return for money and favours, could help to put Hanratty in the ‘frame’ and take off some of the ‘heat.’ The problem for them was, as I indicated earlier, that once the police began to make a case against Hanratty they found to their alarm that they either had to save themselves from prison or Hanratty from the gallows. Maybe they clung on to the hope that British justice would not hang an innocent man, all would be forgiven and they could all return to their nefarious ways.

[NickB]

I have ordered a hard copy of the book, which reminds me of a paragraph in Valerie's 2002 Daily Mail interview:

"She even said she might return to the 'copious notes' and piles of paper that have accumulated over the years and write her own book about her nightmare."

The non-knicker evidence is often dismissed as circumstantial, but when you put it together (cartridge cases, handkerchief, calling himself Jim etc.) it means that either Hanratty did it or he was framed. Yet the books that claim he didn't do it hardly touch on the reason why, and mechanisms for how, he was framed.

---

[OneRound]

...

It is admitted that Val and Mike had had sex in the Moggie Minor on the Sunday immediately before the adduction but had not done so on the evening of 22 August. The much-debated thorny question as to how the mystery blood group AB DNA material was detected on the fragment of the knickers she was wearing on the 22 August is not otherwise addressed.

...

Hi Spitfire,

Thorny indeed.

The Sunday concerned was the 20th. Thus, for the mystery DNA material to be attributable to Gregsten as the Court of Appeal was (too) willing to presume and not a consquence of contamination or Valerie Storie being raped by someone other than Hanratty, she must have been wearing three day old (or more) unwashed knickers.

That's right, isn't it? If so, I struggle with it.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Spitfire]

I spent a pleasant few hours in the garden reading Paul Stickler's book The Long Silence. The book was authorised by Valerie Storie's estate and is written by an ex-bobby, so I am sure the tone and contents will come as no surprise.

It is not entirely free of error despite the author taking to task those who in the past have made similar errors of spelling of names etc. For example, Carole France becomes "Carol France"; Meike Dalal was a Swedish national (she was German-born and naturalised British) and the date of the murder is wrong in this passage at p258

Of course Val and Mike were abducted on the evening of 22 August and they were both shot in the early hours of 23 August 1961.

It is admitted that Val and Mike had had sex in the Moggie Minor on the Sunday immediately before the adduction but had not done so on the evening of 22 August. The much-debated thorny question as to how the mystery blood group AB DNA material was detected on the fragment of the knickers she was wearing on the 22 August is not otherwise addressed.

It is alleged that Hanratty's dad had on two occasions tried to knobble witnesses. This must have been discussed in other books but without much prominence.



and the note at note 6



The book contains photographs many of which we have seen before, however courtesy of Bedfordshire cops there are photos of the infamous bedroom/bathroom at Indledene and of Room 24 of the Vienna. There are also photos of the postcard sent by Jimmy from Ireland.



The attic room at Ingledene. This photo must have been available to Woffinden but did not find its way into his work on the A6 Murder. The photo clearly demonstrates that the room described (rear room, curtains, sink etc) by Hanratty was nothing like the attic room.

[ansonman]

Paul Stickler, the author of the new book about the case, is giving an online talk on the 15th September:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-a...s-167271125439

I've signed up to that and also bought the kindle version of the book. I haven't finished it yet, but haven't found any new revelations so far. It is, needless to say, very much from the "Hanratty did it" point of view. Which is fine by me!

It's a bit more than that:

"The Long Silence is, in essence, Valerie’s posthumous autobiography"

Which is why I would be reading it.

Ansonman

[gallicrow]

Paul Stickler, the author of the new book about the case, is giving an online talk on the 15th September:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-a...s-167271125439

I've signed up to that and also bought the kindle version of the book. I haven't finished it yet, but haven't found any new revelations so far. It is, needless to say, very much from the "Hanratty did it" point of view. Which is fine by me!

[cobalt]

It’s a reasonable point made by Caz: that in our haste to exculpate James Hanratty there is a danger that we end up throwing Peter Alphon under the very same bus! The dodgy Vienna Hotel testimony by Nudds was as damning to Alphon in one version as it was to Hanratty in another. We can’t have it both ways which is why I have tended to ignore Nudds’ testimony, for example, as utterly useless. Likewise the ID evidence of Mrs. Lanz placing Alphon as an occasional customer in the hotel where the victims had been drinking that night (which she claimed was given to the police soon after the murder) cannot carry more weight than the disputed ID of Valerie Storie.

The treatment of Alphon by the police seems to support my point about a wish to close the case down. The police may have lost interest in him after his ID parade but he subsequently became an absolute nuisance to them and others. There was a serious attack on a woman in her home. There was an assault on Mrs. Hanratty. There were threatening phone calls, some recorded on tape. And of course his performance in Paris where he casually admitted guilt to the A6 murder and attempted murder. All these actions had witnesses to support legal action against Alphon but none was forthcoming so far as I am aware. You might have thought it was in the police and public interest to put a stop to his various antics but the authorities seem to have been more concerned by the prospect of a trial which would have offered Alphon a platform to make his claims.