A6 Rebooted

[OneRound]

Depends what you mean by 'valid', OneRound.

If the guilty man was never suspected, for instance, and didn't take part in either parade, there would be no telling what he really looked like, and Valerie presumably thought she had a valid reason for picking out Clark.

The argument is usually made that because she picked out Clark and not Alphon, then went on to pick out Hanratty, she must have had little real idea about the man who had actually raped and shot her, and therefore her subsequent identification of Hanratty [without the benefit of DNA evidence] was unreliable. It's a perfectly fair observation, but it comes with the inference that Alphon was the gunman and Valerie therefore made two mistakes. But if we accept that Alphon walks for lack of evidence, it is then difficult to argue that Valerie had no possible grounds for mistaking Clark for the gunman. How would we know that, if we don't have the gunman to make the comparison which only Valerie could have made, for what it was worth?

Love,

Caz
X

Sorry Caz but the only real valid reason Valerie should have had for picking Clark was that she was certain he raped her and shot Gregsten. He obviously didn't and so, at least for me, her credibility was blown with that misidentification.

It was not - or should not have been - for Valerie to pick someone who was comparable to or looked like the rapist and killer. It had to be the rapist and killer or no one if either he wasn't on the parade or she was uncertain.

I agree with your wording that I have put in bold but whilst the inference you then refer to is there for some, it isn't for me. I've long since looked at this case from a legal viewpoint of guilt being proved fairly beyond reasonable doubt and don't consider it was for Hanratty. It doesn't follow from that it could or should have been so proved for Alphon.

On the balance of probabilities, I would acknowledge there is a strong likelihood that Hanratty was guilty; I'm particularly influenced by Hanratty's own lies at trial as to at least one of his alibis and, another of your favourites, his DNA being on the hanky wrapped around the murder gun. However, that doesn't satisfy me as to fairly proving legal guilt, particularly when police non-disclosures go into the mix.

I'll leave this one here other than just to add it might have been helpful for all of us - and potentially massively so for Hanratty - if he, Alphon and Clark had all been on that first parade.

Best regards,
OneRound

[djw]

Hello Derrick and all who commented on this aspect of the case. I made a FOI request and this is the reply which I received.

[/I]

So there we are. I have two months to appeal the decision. It seems to me if I can show that the info which is considered to be detrimental to the health of the victims' family or families is already in the public domain then there can be no reason for withholding the file on that basis.

This is broadly the arguments the National Archives declined to release the Matthews report on.

Were Nimmo and Hawser public inquiries or statutory inquiries?

[cobalt]

Only Valerie Storie would have been able to explain why she picked out Michael Clark in error. It’s obvious that she had little opportunity to see the murderer’s face since it was necessary at the second ID parade for her to hear the men speak. She may have been relying on some general impression when she identified Mr. Clark.

I was an innocent member of an ID line up as a teenager and might, through great coincidence, have been picked out as the guilty party. There had been a low level burglary attempt one Sunday morning and the police invited 6 of us- preparing to play football an hour later in the local public park- down to the cop shop, employing a lure of civic duty and payment. In terms of appearance and demeanour the suspect stood out like a carrot in a bunch of bananas next to us grammar school lads, albeit we were all wearing jeans and t-shirts. He was already an established ‘bad un’ well known to both us and the police.

In the event two elderly witnesses picked out nobody but, to my alarm, it turned out that the burglary had taken place in the very street where I lived. A town of around 50,000 inhabitants and by sheer chance I had walked past the burgled house on my way to play football soon after the crime. I was in Vienna Hotel territory! In fact I walked past that house a couple of times every day so it would have been fully understandable if the two OAPs thought I looked a tad familiar and tapped me on the shoulder. And my alibi? I didn’t really have one. I was walking alone, heading for the public park, carrying a sports bag.

I’ve often wondered what would have transpired had I been picked out at the ID parade. I didn’t have a criminal record any more than Hanratty or Alphon had a record of armed robbery/kidnap but, as someone would no doubt have remarked, he had to start somewhere.

[caz]

Depends what you mean by 'valid', OneRound.

If the guilty man was never suspected, for instance, and didn't take part in either parade, there would be no telling what he really looked like, and Valerie presumably thought she had a valid reason for picking out Clark.

The argument is usually made that because she picked out Clark and not Alphon, then went on to pick out Hanratty, she must have had little real idea about the man who had actually raped and shot her, and therefore her subsequent identification of Hanratty [without the benefit of DNA evidence] was unreliable. It's a perfectly fair observation, but it comes with the inference that Alphon was the gunman and Valerie therefore made two mistakes. But if we accept that Alphon walks for lack of evidence, it is then difficult to argue that Valerie had no possible grounds for mistaking Clark for the gunman. How would we know that, if we don't have the gunman to make the comparison which only Valerie could have made, for what it was worth?

Love,

Caz
X

[OneRound]

Not sure about that, OneRound. Valerie might have had a very specific reason for ruling out Alphon, along with all the others she ruled out.

Yes, if she had picked out Alphon, after ruling out all the others in that first parade, things could have been very bad for him indeed. But it never happened so we can only guess. Had Alphon hanged instead of Hanratty, and had the verdict been as hotly disputed for years afterwards, the DNA evidence would presumably have proved a miscarriage of justice in his case, and Valerie would still be accused today of having picked out the wrong man, but at least that accusation would be wholly justified.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi once more Caz,

I fully accept that Valerie may have had a good reason to rule out Alphon. However, and this was meant to be my key point, she could not have had a valid reason to pick Clark. Once she did, she was no longer a witness I could rely upon.

Btw, I agree with your response to ansonman's last post.

Best regards,
OneRound

[caz]

Just as well that Michael Clark had an alibi!

He didn't need one, ansonman. He was there to make up the numbers. I'm sure you know how this works, so why make such a fatuous comment?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

<sub>Hi again Caz,

We've had this dance before but you're a good partner, so let's go across the floor one more time.

As Valerie Storie asserted, there was only one man who shot Michael Gregsten and raped her. Once she picked the wrong man, her credibility was gone. For me at least.

If the guilty man was not on the first parade, it was incumbent on her to pick no one. It was not - or should not have been - a case of keep going until you pick someone on a further parade whom the police consider to be a suspect and then he can be charged.

Worth being aware that had she picked out Alphon first time round (and she had as much chance of doing so as the random man she identified), he would almost certainly have been charged and then .... hmmm.

Best regards,
OneRound</sub>

Not sure about that, OneRound. Valerie might have had a very specific reason for ruling out Alphon, along with all the others she ruled out.

Yes, if she had picked out Alphon, after ruling out all the others in that first parade, things could have been very bad for him indeed. But it never happened so we can only guess. Had Alphon hanged instead of Hanratty, and had the verdict been as hotly disputed for years afterwards, the DNA evidence would presumably have proved a miscarriage of justice in his case, and Valerie would still be accused today of having picked out the wrong man, but at least that accusation would be wholly justified.

Love,

Caz
X

[ansonman]

Just as well that Michael Clark had an alibi!

[OneRound]

Surely she picked out a different person on the two parades she attended. You make it sound like there were several!

Also, she couldn't have picked out Hanratty on the first one because he wasn't there. Alphon was, but she failed to pick him out, and he is the only other suspect who was ever seriously considered.

Love,

Caz
X

<sub>Hi again Caz,

We've had this dance before but you're a good partner, so let's go across the floor one more time.

As Valerie Storie asserted, there was only one man who shot Michael Gregsten and raped her. Once she picked the wrong man, her credibility was gone. For me at least.

If the guilty man was not on the first parade, it was incumbent on her to pick no one. It was not - or should not have been - a case of keep going until you pick someone on a further parade whom the police consider to be a suspect and then he can be charged.

Worth being aware that had she picked out Alphon first time round (and she had as much chance of doing so as the random man she identified), he would almost certainly have been charged and then .... hmmm.

Best regards,
OneRound</sub>

[ansonman]

Well, cobalt, you have already made up your own mind about what the Matthews Report would reveal, so why do you need to see it? Assuming you won't be 'distressed' either way, it's not up to you to speak for surviving relatives of anyone who was personally involved in the case in any capacity. You may regard their potential distress as a bogus reason for not publishing, but you can't know that distress would not still be a consequence of doing so.

People can't always admit it to themselves that they were, or could have been wrong, let alone put it in an official report. Distrusting the DNA findings goes with the territory of being unable to let go of a belief, regardless of what the evidence indicates.

Love,

Caz

According to accounts I have read, Matthews concluded that Hanratty was entirely innocent of the crime and had been wrongly hanged. Is it unreasonable for us to know how and why Matthews reached this conclusion? I would have thought it is in almost everyone's interests to want to get to the truth.

[caz]

''Would disclosure be likely to reveal anything powerful enough to overturn or cast serious doubt on the DNA findings?''
Yes, otherwise the Matthews Report would have been published. I regard the distress, real or imagined, to surviving relatives a bogus reason for not publishing. The notion that the Hanratty family might be caused further distress by publication is preposterous since Matthews conveyed to them his belief that James Hanratty was innocent of the crime.

''If not, please don't tell me it wouldn't be argued that such evidence was bound to be destroyed or redacted to protect the status quo.''
I suspect that sensitive information has long since been shredded but judging by Matthews' recommendation there must be enough evidence in existence to cast serious doubt on the verdict. So far as I am aware Matthews never retracted his original belief that Hanratty was innocent even after the DNA evidence emerged. Either he was reluctant to admit he was wrong- a common human frailty- or he distrusted the DNA evidence.

Even for those who hold the DNA evidence to be a 'slam dunk' it would surely be instructive to see why Matthews was misled into believing that there were three persons involved in the crime.

Well, cobalt, you have already made up your own mind about what the Matthews Report would reveal, so why do you need to see it? Assuming you won't be 'distressed' either way, it's not up to you to speak for surviving relatives of anyone who was personally involved in the case in any capacity. You may regard their potential distress as a bogus reason for not publishing, but you can't know that distress would not still be a consequence of doing so.

People can't always admit it to themselves that they were, or could have been wrong, let alone put it in an official report. Distrusting the DNA findings goes with the territory of being unable to let go of a belief, regardless of what the evidence indicates.

Love,

Caz
X

[cobalt]

'No' will be the answer I think.

Legal technicality? Why? There is clearly something underlying the A6 Case which we are not aware of, hence our collective ignorance.

[ansonman]

Guardian 19/2/62:

"Transcript request
When the jury requested that a transcript of the proceedings should be made available to them, Mr Graham Swanwick QC, who had prosecuted, said: "There are certain passages in the transcript which took place in the absence of the jury and these matters clearly would have had to be removed from the transcript if the application was acceded to."

The Judge refused the request, but agreed to the jury's having a copy of the list of witnesses."

I don't recall reading about this until now. Does anyone know which aspects of the trial took place in the absence of the jury?

[Pcdunn]

Jim could have insisted on a new jury, but he and his Counsel seemed happy with the remaining eleven.

No alternate jurors available to step in for the excused squeamish juror? Why not?

[cobalt]

''Would disclosure be likely to reveal anything powerful enough to overturn or cast serious doubt on the DNA findings?''
Yes, otherwise the Matthews Report would have been published. I regard the distress, real or imagined, to surviving relatives a bogus reason for not publishing. The notion that the Hanratty family might be caused further distress by publication is preposterous since Matthews conveyed to them his belief that James Hanratty was innocent of the crime.

''If not, please don't tell me it wouldn't be argued that such evidence was bound to be destroyed or redacted to protect the status quo.''
I suspect that sensitive information has long since been shredded but judging by Matthews' recommendation there must be enough evidence in existence to cast serious doubt on the verdict. So far as I am aware Matthews never retracted his original belief that Hanratty was innocent even after the DNA evidence emerged. Either he was reluctant to admit he was wrong- a common human frailty- or he distrusted the DNA evidence.

Even for those who hold the DNA evidence to be a 'slam dunk' it would surely be instructive to see why Matthews was misled into believing that there were three persons involved in the crime.