Bible John (General Discussion)

[Abby Normal]

recognizing someone from a photofit from sixty years ago? lol cmon

[rjpalmer]

Cobalt/ Roger,

After reading the background provided by Cobalt this one certainly doesn’t seem anything like as possible as it does at first glance. Why is David Wilson wheeled out every time a cold case is looked into? How many has he solved?

I don't understand your comment, Herlock. What does David Wilson have to do with Pauline Badger's statement?

I'm not convinced of the 'car confusion' theory mentioned by Cobalt, though it was discussed in the podcast. For this to have happened, either she was extremely unlucky and the wrong car she got into just happened to be that of a rapists/murderer, or it was a premeditated plot by someone who knew of her babysitting assignment and went to meet her before the wing commander arrived. The first is possible but mere speculation, while the second seems farfetched.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't understand your comment, Herlock. What does David Wilson have to do with Pauline Badger's statement?

I'm not convinced of the 'car confusion' theory mentioned by Cobalt, though it was discussed in the podcast. For this to have happened, either she was extremely unlucky and the wrong car she got into just happened to be that of a rapists/murderer, or it was a premeditated plot by someone who knew of her babysitting assignment and went to meet her before the wing commander arrived. The first is possible but mere speculation, while the second seems farfetched.

Just a general comment on Wilson after Cobalt mentioned him giving his opinion on the Ellis murder.

[cobalt]

There are different accounts of Rita's movements on the evening she was killed, some of which come from local newspapers. In most versions she left her apartment block witnessed by a young couple at around 7.25 and went to the guardhouse to await her lift to go babysitting. The officer drove instead to the block at around 7.40, waited 15 minutes, then returned with his wife since men were not allowed into the female block. His wife made enquiries to no avail, although it is believed she went into block 6 instead of block 7 where Rita resided.

One account has Rita being picked up by a car just prior to the arrival of the officer at 7.40. Another account has her returning to her room inside the block where she was seen at around 8pm. There is another possible sighting of her around this time near the gymnasium but I have no idea how far away that would be from her room.

The army base was busy that night- it was the weekend I think- with disco and bingo on the entertainment agenda which meant a fair number of non-army personnel would have been in the grounds. Female quarters inside an army camp would be an obvious place of interest for anyone seeking female company. If Rita was standing looking like she'd been 'stood up' she might have attracted interest of the worst sort.

David Wilson has identified what he believes is a strong suspect and passed such information to the police. I wouldn't expect to hear much more on that front. The MoD records of the case remain sealed until 2070 on grounds of national security.

[rjpalmer]

Just a general comment on Wilson after Cobalt mentioned him giving his opinion on the Ellis murder.

Ah, okay, Michael. I thought there was some connection between Badger and Wilson's theories that I didn't know about.

I went back and listened again to the end of the Ellis podcast, and it's stranger than I remembered.

If what is stated is true--and who knows in this day and age?---the medical technician at the RAF base must have been identified--just not named, though no account I've yet seen makes this explicit.

The claim is that he was transferred abroad right after the murder of Ellis in November 1967 (this was four months before the first Bible John murder). It then also goes on to claim he was on 'leave' at the time of each of the three Bible John murders in 1968-1969. Of course, there's no way anyone could know this unless the man in question has been identified, and his service record checked. It would also have been enough of a coincidence that it would have been investigated.

As Cobalt states, since 200 men have had their DNA checked in the Ellis case and were eliminated, wouldn't he be among them? One often gets the feeling that some of these theories area a wind-up, with certain necessary bits of information deliberately withheld, but I'm still going to look into it a bit further. Ciao.

[cobalt]

A contemporary report from 1967 mentions a cafe owner, mid 40s, who heard a couple arguing near the place where Rita Ellis' body was found the following morning. This happened around 9pm, at least an hour after her last being seen.

Rather curiously a local woman, previously unaware of the case, did some detective work quite recently and discovered that the story about Rita being worried about being attacked was known to a woman who she thinks worked in a cafe at the time. Possibly the daughter of the cafe owner back in 1967 who I assume is not Pauline Badger but perhaps knew her then.

This is not much help regarding Bible John though. I have to assume the Puttock crime scene DNA has been entered on the UK database and did not match that from the army base. That leaves the possibility of John McInnes, but surely his movements have been scrutinised and he has been discounted as a suspect.

[barnflatwyngarde]

As I was saying............
Apologies for the delay, but here we go, again.

The following are my notes/impressions of Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search For a Sadist", published in 1980.
This is the rarest of all the books on the Bible John murders, so when I managed to get my hands on a copy, I hoped that maybe the book would provide fresh information and insights on this fascinating and frustrating case. I wasn't disappointed, but you may disagree.
I will resist the temptation to repeat already widely known facts about the case.

The book has ten chapters and a preface, the information below follows the order in the book, so some related elements may appear in several different chapters.
I will split up the info over two posts.
Part two will appear tomorrow.

1. Preface and Introduction
The author clearly has the utmost respect for Joe Beattie, and the book is dedicated to Beattie.
Stoddart tells of many meetings with Beattie as they both scoured the pile of press clippings relating to the case, presumably compiled by Beattie.
I think that it is reasonable to assume that many of the unique details of the case in the book came directly from Beattie himself.
Beattie is convinced that the killer went out with the intention of killing and that these were not opportunistic killings.
On page 25 we learn that in relation to the 3 murders "Joe is reluctant to link the three."
We are not told how he came to this conclusion.
Stoddart concedes that, as has been mentioned in this thread, that "there is very little (evidence) on the previous killing of Jemima MacDonald and almost nothing at all on the killing of Patricia Docker".
We are entitled to ask why!
For Joe Beattie to acknowledge this fact seems very strange.

2. The Death of Patricia Docker
The first officers on the scene of the murder at 8.10am were Det Sgt Andrew Johnston and DC Norman McDonald.
A Murder Squad was quickly set up under the command of Det Supt Elphinstone Dalglish.
The Police Surgeon James Imrie attended and examined the body in situ, and found ligature marks on the neck which suggested manual strangulation. The body also had marks consistent with being punched or kicked.
The post mortem confirmed that Patricia had been menstruating and that "there was no clear evidence of sexual assault."
There were no signs of Patricia's handbag or clothes.
Two cars were seen in the vicinity of the murder, a Morris 1000 Traveller and a white Ford Consul 375.
Both drivers were traced and eliminated from the enquiry.


3. Jemima McDonald (sic) : Second Victim?
Jemima's body was discovered by her sister Margaret in a derelict building, 23 McKeith Street.
I posted a photo of the interior of the building on this thread. It shows just how shabby and shocking the murder site was.
Det Supt Tom Goodall took charge of the investigation.
Jemima had been strangled with her tights, and her handbag was missing.
Jemima was seen by "a boy" who said that he saw Jemima with a fair haired man in a pub, and a "girl" who saw the same couple sitting on a settee in the Barrowland.
The Police closed their investigation at the Barrowland into Jemima's murder toward the end of October 1969. A mere two months after the murder.

4. Helen Puttock Meets Bible John
Helen and her sister Jeannie met two friends, Marion Cadder and Jean O'Donnell at the Trader's Tavern at 9.00pm and left for the Barrowland Ballroom at 1.00pm.
The Trader's Tavern is 130 yards from the Barrowland.

5. Escort to Murder
Jeannie said that Bible John was "very nice, polite and well spoken."
Bible John stood up and pulled out a chair for Helen when she approached the table.
Bible John told Jeannie that his surname was "Templeton, Sempleson or Emerson."
At the taxi rank Jeannie asked Helen where Bible John lived, Helen waved her hand, but in no particular direction.
This may indicate that he came from the other side of the city, this would appear to rule out the East End, where the Barrowland was, but could suggest the Southside or the West End.
Bible John showed a knowledge of the bus fares for the north of the city, and appeared to know some pubs in Yoker. Yoker is 3.5 miles from Byres Road.
No mention is made of the Dishevelled man seen getting on a bus and taking his bus fare from a red purse.

6. The Murder Hunt
The Senior Officers attending the murder scene were Joe Beattie, Elphinstone Dalglish and Detective Seargeant James Bunce.
Joe Beattie assumed control of the investigation.
There were signs of a struggle at the bottom of the embankment.
The Grass in the backcourt was long so Joe Beattie had it cut. Would this have possibly destroyed any evidence that was there?
Joe Beattie took George Puttock into the backcourt to identify the body.
This contradicts other accounts.
George Puttock was eliminated as a suspect on the first day of the enquiry.
Surely this is is very early to eliminate a suspect.
The Procurator Fiscal personally turned up at the murder scene. Was this usual?
Joe Beattie interviewed Jeannie Langford personally. There is no evidence that any otrher police officer was present at this interview.
On page 73 we read "Early enquiries produced a suspect immediately; he fitted the description given by Jeannie, he had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday, he was married but was known to frequent the dancing. Someone told the police of his identity and that he was believed to live in Stonehouse. On the Sunday preparations were made for an identification parade to be held at 11.00am, but it didn't take place until 5.00pm; the suspect had moved from Stonehouse and the police chased around Lanarkshire all day until he was finally traced at Newarthill, near Airdrie. But when he was paraded Jeannie failed to identify anyone on the parade."

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve been sitting here waiting for you Barn, where have you been?

Thanks for posting this. On one hand we have Beattie the highly respected detective Officer yet on the other we have the suggestion of Beattie the man who sat on evidence. Blind eye or error?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I’ve been sitting here waiting for you Barn, where have you been?

Thanks for posting this. On one hand we have Beattie the highly respected detective Officer yet on the other we have the suggestion of Beattie the man who sat on evidence. Blind eye or error?

Herlock, the years of playing senior rugby, training and marathon running finally took its toll, and I have a spanking brand new knee.
Interesting operation it was, involving hammers, chisels, drills and sanders.
All done with a spinal anaesthetic.
Thank goodness for the Brian Eno album I had on my mobile phone. Never felt a thing, but even through the headphones some interesting noises percolated through.
It's genuinely nice to be back.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, the years of playing senior rugby, training and marathon running finally took its toll, and I have a spanking brand new knee.
Interesting operation it was, involving hammers, chisels, drills and sanders.
All done with a spinal anaesthetic.
Thank goodness for the Brian Eno album I had on my mobile phone. Never felt a thing, but even through the headphones some interesting noises percolated through.
It's genuinely nice to be back.

Glad it went well Barn, good to see you back. I hope it’s not a case of not being able to sit too near to the fire in case your new knee melts?

[cobalt]

We're making some headway. The two cars spotted near the Patricia Docker murder were traced and the drivers eliminated. That fits with my suspicion that the murderer was on foot but still leaves open the question of how he disposed of the clothing.

Two persons saw Jemima MacDonald with a 'fair haired' man, one in a pub and then in the Barrowland. There is no information about whether these persons were ever invited to view an ID parade following the Helen Puttock murder. I suspect not.

We now know (if Stoddart's account is accurate) that Jeannie DID view the ID parade where clearly McInnes was the suspect. The fact she did not pick him out points to his innocence. The ID parade was three days after the murder and she may have had some alcohol to dull her senses, but it's hard to imagine she would not have remembered what BJ looked like. However were any other witnesses such as the taxi driver or the bouncers invited to this ID parade? Again, I suspect not, since Beattie seems to have (understandably perhaps) put all of his eggs in the Jeannie basket.

It would be interesting to know who identified McInnes as a man seen in the Barrowland that evening. It's not clear whether this was the same person who knew he was married, came from Stonehouse and presumably knew his name. (Could it be his work colleagues?)
Did anyone actually see McInnes in the company of Helen that evening? Or did the witnesses just see McInnes in the dance hall?

[barnflatwyngarde]

We're making some headway. The two cars spotted near the Patricia Docker murder were traced and the drivers eliminated. That fits with my suspicion that the murderer was on foot but still leaves open the question of how he disposed of the clothing.

Two persons saw Jemima MacDonald with a 'fair haired' man, one in a pub and then in the Barrowland. There is no information about whether these persons were ever invited to view an ID parade following the Helen Puttock murder. I suspect not.

We now know (if Stoddart's account is accurate) that Jeannie DID view the ID parade where clearly McInnes was the suspect. The fact she did not pick him out points to his innocence. The ID parade was three days after the murder and she may have had some alcohol to dull her senses, but it's hard to imagine she would not have remembered what BJ looked like. However were any other witnesses such as the taxi driver or the bouncers invited to this ID parade? Again, I suspect not, since Beattie seems to have (understandably perhaps) put all of his eggs in the Jeannie basket.

It would be interesting to know who identified McInnes as a man seen in the Barrowland that evening. It's not clear whether this was the same person who knew he was married, came from Stonehouse and presumably knew his name. (Could it be his work colleagues?)
Did anyone actually see McInnes in the company of Helen that evening? Or did the witnesses just see McInnes in the dance hall?

Cobalt, I'm sure that I've got the name of the person who reported McInnes to the police.
I'll have a look at my notes tomorrow and post it up.

[cobalt]

Cheers Barn.

''On page 73 we read "Early enquiries produced a suspect immediately; he fitted the description given by Jeannie, he had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday, he was married but was known to frequent the dancing. Someone told the police of his identity and that he was believed to live in Stonehouse.''

This sounds a two stage ID to me. Early enquiries 'immediately' produced a suspect who matched Jeannie's description and some patron of the Barrowland Ballroom knew that he was married. (I'm curious how they knew this fact given the culture of Thursday nights at this venue.)

Further enquiries were able to put a name and address to this suspect, i.e. John McInnes of Stonehouse.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that the police heard about McInnes from the two Moylan's employees Thomas Murphy and Leonard Smith. The wording of the podcast is such that Thomas Murphy was taken to Patrick Marine then - another Moylan’s employee Leonard Smith was also put before Jeannie. Which clearly suggests that they were both put in front of her. Smith said that they were asked to show their teeth but it wasn’t a formal ID parade. It’s said that Beattie didn’t mention McInnes to either of them though.

So, why were the two men questioned in the first place? Can it be anything other than the card that led the police to Moylan’s? And if Beattie didn’t mention McInnes to them what caused the big guns to shoot over to Stonehouse. Was it simply a case of the two man passing the ID parade and then saying “by the way we saw John Irvine McInnes at Barrowland?” I don’t know.

Although the two cars were traced and eliminated I still find the clothing issue a puzzle (well 2 puzzles) Why did he take the clothes in the first place and how? The killer would hardly have taken a bag to the Barrowland. Everything is shouting ‘car’ at me Cobalt but it’s an unknown.

[cobalt]

Stoddart comes across poorly from what I have read so far. Surely he should have been putting some of the points we have just made to Beattie when they spoke. I remarked earlier, I never trust writers who shower praise on a detective that has given them exclusive inside information on a cold case. (Martin Dillon who wrote the Shankill Butchers is a cautionary example of this.)

Stooddart says a suspect was identified 'immediately' yet we discover that two Moylan employees- neither of whom presumably match the description offered up by Jeannie- were being interviewed before McInnes ever entered the frame. So maybe Stoddart's choice of vocabulary is weak. Like HS I think the detail of McInnes' matching appearance, his marital status and his location could only have come to police attention through Smith and Murphy.