Bible John (General Discussion)

[Darryl Kenyon]

I don’t think that we could assume that a detective was incompetent because a case went unsolved. That said, I certainly wasn’t claiming that Beattie was any kind of genius either and he may well have had an inflated sense of his own skills, but it’s difficult to see how someone can achieve high rank if they are completely incompetent. Once promoted an officer reflects on The Force and those that promoted him so, at the very least, they would have to be confident in his aptitude for the job. Again though, I’m certainly not claiming that Beattie couldn’t have got things wrong but difficult though to imagine Beattie charging over to see McInnes with high his ranking colleagues and then letting him go before letting Jeannie see him just because a family member might have given him an alibi’

I agree Herlock, there is a piece missing from the jigsaw puzzle of Mcinnes

Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

In 1996 John McInnes was exhumed making him a strong suspect. That doesn't mean he was the killer though. DNA from his sister gave a familial match, but no profile could be properly obtained from him. A bouncer from the Barrowlands and the taxi driver both said a picture of Mcinnes from years later was their man. Jeannie did not, she couldn't be sure.
Don't get me wrong from what we know I believe Mcinnes to be a strong suspect. But it's what we know . Perhaps when he was looked into with Beattie etc he did have a cast iron alibi, an alibi which has gone missing from the paperwork over time along with dozens of other suspects papers . Hundreds if not thousands of people , I believe were looked into .
Maybe that is the solution why Jeannie was never asked to ID him and we are barking up the wrong tree.

Regards Darryl

You could be right Darryl but what we have is, just as a recap, a collection of very unusually high-ranking officers heading over to Stonehouse two days after Helen Puttock’s murder and the first address that they go to was John Irvine McInnes brother’s and he confirmed that it was to do with a card found at the scene and yet there’s not a single mention of this seemingly red hot suspect in the files. We have our suspect taken to Hamilton Police Station rather than Patrick Marine which was the base of the investigation. Then we have a woman claiming to know who the killer was but the police send McInness’ cousin to see her and there’s not only nothing in the records about the content of the meeting but an effort has been made to delete it from the record. Then we have Jimmy McInnes apparently finding a Glasgow taxi (Hanna’s) with no fingerprints. The same Jimmy McInnes who claimed that he played no part in the investigation apart from manning the phones once. Then we have Jimmy claiming that the card was false evidence (why would anyone want to frame John Irvine McInnes?) and following and reacting aggressively the detectives reinvestigating the case.

Bloody strange to say the least Darryl.

[New Waterloo]

It is most strange such senior officers going over to Stonehouse. I am not sure (perhaps others can help) why the first house they go to is that of John McInnes's brother?

I think we can however put the teeth issue to bed once and for all. If the officers were half decent people and McInnes had overlapping teeth then he would have been arrested and there would have been a formal parade.

In my opinion he couldnt have had overlapping teeth. The senior officers would have seen them. Perhaps the lack of overlapping teeth was all that was required to get him off the hook. Along with some other alibi.

As suggested there is a piece of the jigsaw missing

NW

[Ms Diddles]

Ms Diddles you make some very important observations. Many people will wait for their teenage daughter to come home from a night out, worried about them. Concerned they get home safe. Half asleep people will wake just as a care/taxi drives into the street. perhaps George was half asleep. Waiting.

But for George to be the murderer is a leap. The same leap that suggests in the confusion of Stride at the gate that a stranger appears from nowhere and kills her.

These are fanciful. Possible but fanciful.

The person last seen with Helen in all probability killed her. Without other evidence contradicting this then that must be the case.

I think

NW

Hi NW!

I think so too!

I just feel that there are reasonable grounds to include George in any suspect list in relation to Helen's murder.

[cobalt]

I doubt that George Puttock would have nursed his wrath to the extent that he decided to rape his wife while throttling her in a back court more than 100 yards from their house. He could have waited till she came home. What Helen's taxi companion- presumably McInnes- made of this murderous exhibition of wrath we can but guess.

But there is a DNA problem that I would welcome advice on. First of all, I believe that Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock were raped, or sexually assaulted in some manner. That means there should be forensic information from these two crimes. So there could have been a blood group connection made between these two murders back in 1969. Since most Scots are either group O or group A this might not have helped a great deal, but it would have been able to eliminate the common attacker in these murders IF the blood groups were different; I have to assume that the blood groups were therefore the same. I would also assume that McInnes' blood group matched these two crimes otherwise the very tortuous legal and moral exercise involved in exhuming his body would not have been undertaken.
This blood group information should surely have been established in regard to the late Mr. John Templeton by the author who is now making allegations against him.

I have read that the original Helen Puttock semen sample has now been degraded to the extent that it is no longer useful. This does not make sense. I can appreciate that to be legally admissible a suspect's DNA might have to be matched against the original sample. Fair enough. But there must be a record of the semen DNA in some 'barcode' form which exists on record. Any subsequent suspects' DNA could be matched against that recorded previously. Perhaps not sufficient to be legal proof, but it could at least satisfy our curiosity.

[New Waterloo]

Very logical thinking. Simple but good idea. I think I see what you are saying. If we knew McInnes blood group was say A and the semen stain on Helen was B then that seems a simple but effective way to eliminate McInnes.

You are correct. Someone once told me a blood group comparison doesn't prove who the blood was from, but significantly it does tell us who it wasn't from.

Can I suggest another simple way forward. Does anybody at all have any photograph of McInnes other than the army photo. Why are there no photos? Surely someone must have one.

Perhaps the family are not releasing any photo's and why doesn't someone who knew McInnes or a relative just say whether he had overlapping teeth or not. If he didn't and this could be confirmed it would be another step forward.

NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello again peeps!

I am typing up my notes from Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and hope to share these with you shortly (sorry for the delay, but life got in the way).

One of the enduring frustrations of the case is the failure of Castlemilk John to come forward and the police's failure to trace him.
However, I have found out that the police put together a photofit of Castlemilk John, and distributed it to all police stations.

This piece of information came from an interview with Joe Beattie in the Sunday Mail of 23rd August 1970.
The relevant article says:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification.
Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John - the man who was with Bible John at the Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

(Sunday Mail 23rd August 1970)

The only people who were in a position to contribute to this photofit were Jeannie Langford and possibly the taxi driver who drove them to Scotstoun, although any input from him is probably unlikely.
Castlemilk John had no input in the cigarette machine dispute at the Barrowland.

So, if the article is true, and Joe Beattie is to be trusted, the police had a workable photofit describing Catlemilk John, and this photofit may still be lurking in the original case files.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello again peeps!

I am typing up my notes from Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and hope to share these with you shortly (sorry for the delay, but life got in the way).

One of the enduring frustrations of the case is the failure of Castlemilk John to come forward and the police's failure to trace him.
However, I have found out that the police put together a photofit of Castlemilk John, and distributed it to all police stations.

This piece of information came from an interview with Joe Beattie in the Sunday Mail of 23rd August 1970.
The relevant article says:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification.
Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John - the man who was with Bible John at the Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

(Sunday Mail 23rd August 1970)

The only people who were in a position to contribute to this photofit were Jeannie Langford and possibly the taxi driver who drove them to Scotstoun, although any input from him is probably unlikely.
Castlemilk John had no input in the cigarette machine dispute at the Barrowland.

So, if the article is true, and Joe Beattie is to be trusted, the police had a workable photofit describing Catlemilk John, and this photofit may still be lurking in the original case files.

That’s interesting Barn. I’d certainly never heard of that. It shows the value of the first book written on the case by someone who could question those involved at the time. I think that Castermilk John had gone for a bus before they found a taxi so I’m guessing that this photo fit must have come from Jeannie. As you say, he wasn’t involved in the cigarette machine incident and although he would have been nearby the staff would have had no reason to have paid him any attention, with Bible John doing his Dirty Harry act.

I look forward to your notes Barn (and no need to apologise…life never allows you to do the stuff that you actually want to do when you want to do them.

[rjpalmer]

While on a trip, I was listening to a podcast and came across a Bible John suspect that I had never heard of, though maybe others here have already encountered him.

The podcast was about the murder of Rita Ellis, an RAF servicewoman, aged only 19, in November 1967. She had arranged to babysit the children of a wing commander on the base (RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire) but never showed up. Later she was found beaten and strangled to death and partially disrobed.

Very little progress was ever made in solving the case and the Thames Valley Police consider it an open investigation.

At the very end of the podcast, it mentioned that a woman named Pauline Badger, who had been a stewardess at the base back in the 1960s, saw the new sketch of Bible John a couple of years ago and was sure she recognized a young serviceman at the base, a Scotsman. The interesting thing is that she said he was a training to be a medical lab technician at RAF Halton. There was something about him that she found to be creepy and, of course, Bible John is said to have alluded to working in a lab.

Of course, her memory could have been playing tricks after all these years, but it was reported that the was some reason for believing that Rita Ellis had been murdered by someone on the base, as the location of the body was off the beaten track.

After a short search, I noticed that Scottish Sun ran a brief story on this back in January 2022.

I'm convinced I met Bible John, I didn't make the link until I saw new photofit of serial killer | The Scottish Sun

There was (or is) apparently some effort underway to collect DNA samples from everyone still alive who had worked at RAF Halton back in the 1960s, though what truth there is to this I do not know. It would be a massive undertaking.

[rjpalmer]

One thing that struck me as rather iffy is that one would think the RAF would still have service records and this man wouldn't be difficult to trace...

[Herlock Sholmes]

While on a trip, I was listening to a podcast and came across a Bible John suspect that I had never heard of, though maybe others here have already encountered him.

The podcast was about the murder of Rita Ellis, an RAF servicewoman, aged only 19, in November 1967. She had arranged to babysit the children of a wing commander on the base (RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire) but never showed up. Later she was found beaten and strangled to death and partially disrobed.

Very little progress was ever made in solving the case and the Thames Valley Police consider it an open investigation.

At the very end of the podcast, it mentioned that a woman named Pauline Badger, who had been a stewardess at the base back in the 1960s, saw the new sketch of Bible John a couple of years ago and was sure she recognized a young serviceman at the base, a Scotsman. The interesting thing is that she said he was a training to be a medical lab technician at RAF Halton. There was something about him that she found to be creepy and, of course, Bible John is said to have alluded to working in a lab.

Of course, her memory could have been playing tricks after all these years, but it was reported that the was some reason for believing that Rita Ellis had been murdered by someone on the base, as the location of the body was off the beaten track.

After a short search, I noticed that Scottish Sun ran a brief story on this back in January 2022.

I'm convinced I met Bible John, I didn't make the link until I saw new photofit of serial killer | The Scottish Sun

There was (or is) apparently some effort underway to collect DNA samples from everyone still alive who had worked at RAF Halton back in the 1960s, though what truth there is to this I do not know. It would be a massive undertaking.

Hi Roger,

I recall seeing an episode of a true crime documentary series on this case but no mention of Bible John at that time but I did see the suggestion made in Garcia’s boom and on another tv documentary (I think). The lab connection adds to the intrigue.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One thing that struck me as rather iffy is that one would think the RAF would still have service records and this man wouldn't be difficult to trace...

Yes, how big could this lab have been?

[cobalt]

Creepy, red haired Scotsman with overlapping teeth who works in lab on army base? Not too difficult to trace I would have thought. Around 200 persons have been eliminated by DNA in the Rita Ellis murder and since there does appear to be DNA available from the Helen Puttock murder then presumably that connection has been eliminated too.

Pauline Badger, who would have been 19 at the time of the Rita Ellis murder, does not convince as a witness. Badger has claimed that Rita spoke to her about a fear she would be attacked a few days before she was indeed murdered, but offers little more detail of why. By all accounts Rita was a quiet, shy girl bordering on nervous so this might not have been out of character. Badger also claims that Rita and the later Bible John victims were 'carbon copies' in terms of appearance but I can't see that myself.

David Wilson, pompous criminology expert, has waded into the case and once he stakes his professional reputation on a theory I tend to rule it out. Wilson believes that Rita went off willingly in a car with a young man she knew but resisted his amorous advances when they were alone in a quiet area. The fact that this flies in the face of her known character up till then and that she had promised to babysit for a senior officer on the base that evening is brushed aside. There was a mix up over where Rita was to be picked up on the base and in the confusion it is believed that Rita, who had never actually met the senior officer, assumed that the car she went into had been sent by him. But at least Wilson resists the impulse to implicate Tobin on this one.

These police photofits might be of limited use. Here are a couple of BJ types with Glasgow connections who might be worth a look. Except they were two professional footballers without the slightest connection to the murders in 1968 and 1969.

[rjpalmer]

Creepy, red haired Scotsman with overlapping teeth who works in lab on army base? Not too difficult to trace I would have thought. Around 200 persons have been eliminated by DNA in the Rita Ellis murder and since there does appear to be DNA available from the Helen Puttock murder then presumably that connection has been eliminated too.

Pauline Badger, who would have been 19 at the time of the Rita Ellis murder, does not convince as a witness. Badger has claimed that Rita spoke to her about a fear she would be attacked a few days before she was indeed murdered, but offers little more detail of why. By all accounts Rita was a quiet, shy girl bordering on nervous so this might not have been out of character. Badger also claims that Rita and the later Bible John victims were 'carbon copies' in terms of appearance but I can't see that myself.

Badger states that she had her epiphany while watching the BBC documentary "The Hunt for Bible John."

One thought immediately crossed my mind. Her memory of the Scot at RAF Halton in 1967 being a technician in a medical lab would be impressive if the documentary didn't mention this 'lead' in the Bible John case but would be considerably less so if it did. (I haven't seen it, so I don't know).

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cobalt/ Roger,

After reading the background provided by Cobalt this one certainly doesn’t seem anything like as possible as it does at first glance. Why is David Wilson wheeled out every time a cold case is looked into? How many has he solved?