Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for your 'legwork' HS. It's very frustrating that so little of substance has been put in the public domain, even allowing for the case being unsolved. There now appear to be TWO late bus suspects. One disembarking somewhere on Dumbarton Road near to a ferry crossing over the River Clyde. (I have surmised the Yoker/Renfrew crossing but may be wrong.) And another one who got off near Argyll Street/Derby Street which is pretty close to the centre of Glasgow and so far as I can judge (Barn can correct me) had no obvious connection to a ferry. The question might be, which one was the man in the dishevelled state? Don't tell me there were two similar looking blokes with the same identifying features on different late night buses at 2am!

McInnes' family connection with Berkeley Square sounds very thin to me. As you say, apart from supposition, what foundation is there to the claim that McInnes ever stayed overnight there? Are there any family, friends or neighbours to confirm this?

There are those who believe Angus Sinclair was the murderer of the first victim Patricia Docker largely based, it seems, on the fact his in-laws stayed nearby. It's damn weak stuff and Sinclair's DNA was obviously on record if any survived on the victim. Sinclair was from Glasgow originally (he committed his first murder as a teenager) but on release from Edinburgh prison lived in the capital and married there in Leith Registry Office in 1970. Again, I am sure there is not a scintilla of evidence to support the claim that Sinclair ever stayed at his (prospective) in-laws house. In fact do we know that he had even met his future wife by 1968? I think she was a nurse who worked in Edinburgh; Sinclair's own family had disowned him; so why would he have been attracted back to Glasgow at that time in his life?

The podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?) Then a couple of lines later we get the information about Argyll and Derby Street.


Then, in the Garcia book we get:

”Having waved goodbye, she caught a glimpse of her sister and John’s impassive face through the car window as it turned back east. It was around half midnight. That wasn’t the last sighting that night of the oddly dressed figure from the Barrowland. It was around 2 a.m. when a near-empty night bus travelling along DuThe podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?)”


In the David Wilson and Paul Harrison book we get:

“At about 2 a.m., a night bus picked up a dishevelled man who had earlier been seen walking up Dumbarton Road, which ran parallel to Earl Street. Some of the passengers noticed that he wore a dirty jacket and had a bruise on his cheek. He eventually got off the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Gray Street.”


In Steve MacGregor’s book we get:

“At around 02:00am, a Number six night service bus was travelling towards the city centre on Dumbarton Road when it stopped between Gardner Street and Fortrose Street (around two and a half miles closer to the city centre than Earl Street) to pick up a single male passenger. The driver, conductor and another passenger noted that the man looked as if he had been in a fight – his jacket was muddy and he had a scratch below one eye. The man seemed embarrassed by his appearance and a short time later, at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Derby Street, he stopped the bus and got off.”

[Ms Diddles]

Excuse my nosiness but were you born in Glasgow?

No, I'm originally from York.

I moved up here to go to Uni when I was 18 and have stuck around for 30 years.

My mum was Scottish and my dad was a Yorkshireman, so I'm a weird English / Scottish hybrid.

[cobalt]

Thanks for your 'legwork' HS. It's very frustrating that so little of substance has been put in the public domain, even allowing for the case being unsolved. There now appear to be TWO late bus suspects. One disembarking somewhere on Dumbarton Road near to a ferry crossing over the River Clyde. (I have surmised the Yoker/Renfrew crossing but may be wrong.) And another one who got off near Argyll Street/Derby Street which is pretty close to the centre of Glasgow and so far as I can judge (Barn can correct me) had no obvious connection to a ferry. The question might be, which one was the man in the dishevelled state? Don't tell me there were two similar looking blokes with the same identifying features on different late night buses at 2am!

McInnes' family connection with Berkeley Square sounds very thin to me. As you say, apart from supposition, what foundation is there to the claim that McInnes ever stayed overnight there? Are there any family, friends or neighbours to confirm this?

There are those who believe Angus Sinclair was the murderer of the first victim Patricia Docker largely based, it seems, on the fact his in-laws stayed nearby. It's damn weak stuff and Sinclair's DNA was obviously on record if any survived on the victim. Sinclair was from Glasgow originally (he committed his first murder as a teenager) but on release from Edinburgh prison lived in the capital and married there in Leith Registry Office in 1970. Again, I am sure there is not a scintilla of evidence to support the claim that Sinclair ever stayed at his (prospective) in-laws house. In fact do we know that he had even met his future wife by 1968? I think she was a nurse who worked in Edinburgh; Sinclair's own family had disowned him; so why would he have been attracted back to Glasgow at that time in his life?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll look at this closer tomorrow Cobalt but the cold cases detectives state that Alexander Hannah, for some inexplicable reason, never attended an ID parade. They also believe that McInnes was never put in front of Jean.

The Cold Case Detectives put 12 photographs in front of Hannah; one of which was of McInnes, which they had on record due to his fraud and theft. The photo was taken a few years after the murder though. Hannah immediately picked out McInnes and even noticed that he looked older in the photo. They then showed 12 photographs to the Bouncer that was involved in the cigarette machine incident. He was confident that he’d recognise the man and immediately picked out McInnes.

On the bus issue, according to the podcast, it was said that the man got off the bus at the junction of Derby Street and Argyll Street. A 5 minute walk away was number 204 Berkeley Street which was the flat of McInnes aunt and uncle William and Janet McInnes. Apparently, although they don’t state how they came to know this, this is where John often stayed if he ever missed his last bus home.

[cobalt]

According to Jeannie, BJ was familiar with pubs in the Yoker area which is opposite the ferry crossing from Renfrew, just north of the Clyde near where Jeannie lived. This I think- but has to be confirmed- is where a BJ suspect was spotted on a late night bus around 2am. One report states he left the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road- a main thoroughfare out of the city- and Gray Steet: but I can't find a Gray Street near the Yoker/Renfrew ferry crossing. In fact the only Gray Street I can find is nowhere near either Dumbarton Road or the River Clyde so I assume it is a mistake.

(Just to complicate matters, the Yoker/Renfrew crossing is within a few minutes from where Jeannie was dropped off prior to the taxi doubling back to Earl Street. If escaping over the River Clyde was to be BJ's MO, then he probably chose the wrong victim.)

The description given of the BJ suspect on the bus tallied with that given by Jeannie. In addition he was dishevelled, had mud on his clothing and a red mark under one eye. He also seemed to have a loose shirt sleeve under his jacket which might link with a cuff link left at the scene of Helen's murder.

The question I would like answered is how many of the following were actually asked to ID the suspect John McInnes in a line up:

Jeannie Langford
Barrowland bouncer
Barrowland manager
Patrons of Barrowland in vicinity of the foursome
William Hannah, taxi driver
Late night bus driver
Late night bus conductor
Any passengers on late night bus

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, I'm familiar with these streets, but am befuddled by what "the other side" could mean in this context!

Cobalt's suggestion that he could have been referring to the southside is a distinct possibility.

Excuse my nosiness but were you born in Glasgow?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ha! They like to roll their "r"s round here, so I can see how that would happen.

I always enjoy it when my sat-nav mispronounces Scottish place names.

Milngavie is a belter!

Yeah, Marcello Mega certainly rolls his r’s brilliantly. I’m ok with accents, though I know some people who are thrown by even the mildest ones. My Nan was from Rosyth but 60 years of living in England had lessened her Scots accent somewhat although never came close to losing it. Her mum’s accent was naturally stronger as she never left Scotland but it certainly wasn’t as pronounced as the Glasgow accent. I loved listening to the interview with Helen Puttock’s relatives. I remember bringing a girlfriend to meet my grandparents nearly 40 years ago. My grandad had a really broad, Black Country accent and she could barely understand him. I remember telling him that I’d buy him some subtitles for Christmas.

[Ms Diddles]

No problem. It looks like whoever transcribed these episodes wasn’t a Scot though. There’s quite a few mispronunciations. Jean’s pronouncing of Earl Street has become Errol Street for example.

Ha! They like to roll their "r"s round here, so I can see how that would happen.

I always enjoy it when my sat-nav mispronounces Scottish place names.

Milngavie is a belter!

[Ms Diddles]

It’s not particularly clear is it? I take it to mean that Jean suspected that John might have lived Clydebank way and that he was prepared to pay for the taxi because he was heading in their direction until Helen told Jean that he was actually heading in the other direction.

It’s a pity that we don’t have a map with these locations on. I can get lost where I live so in Scotland…

Well, I'm familiar with these streets, but am befuddled by what "the other side" could mean in this context!

Cobalt's suggestion that he could have been referring to the southside is a distinct possibility.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock!

That's kind of you.

I'll have a look and see if I can save them.

No problem. It looks like whoever transcribed these episodes wasn’t a Scot though. There’s quite a few mispronunciations. Jean’s pronouncing of Earl Street has become Errol Street for example.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s not particularly clear is it? I take it to mean that Jean suspected that John might have lived Clydebank way and that he was prepared to pay for the taxi because he was heading in their direction until Helen told Jean that he was actually heading in the other direction.

It’s a pity that we don’t have a map with these locations on. I can get lost where I live so in Scotland…

[Ms Diddles]

Btw, did you see my post 89? There are transcripts of the podcasts although you can’t copy and past them. I’ve screenshotted them though and have them all in a folder. If you can’t access them for any reason it shouldn’t be a problem to send them to you.

Thanks Herlock!

That's kind of you.

I'll have a look and see if I can save them.

[cobalt]

'[’Jean then asked if the man was going their way and Helen replied, he’s going the other way and nodded her head.’

and..

’I thought he was paying the taxi because he lived that way. He pointed to the other side. I thought he had maybe he’d stayed in Clydebank or that.’

So they were aware that they were heading in the opposite direction to where John lived.]'

Thanks for the transcript, but I'm not much clearer. If BJ was heading for Clydebank then they were all actually travelling in the same direction. Since Jeannie lived nearer to the Clydebank area it made no sense to drop her off first and then double back to deposit Helen. So Jeannie must have had a different impression of what 'the other side' or 'the other way' meant than Helen.

Given the possible sighting of BJ heading for the Clyde Ferry (at the Yoker/Renfrew crossing?) is it possible that BJ indicated to Helen that he lived somewhere south of the River Clyde?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

Btw, did you see my post 89? There are transcripts of the podcasts although you can’t copy and past them. I’ve screenshotted them though and have them all in a folder. If you can’t access them for any reason it shouldn’t be a problem to send them to you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

The transcript is a bit unclear Ms D. John mentioned being ‘agnostic’ but this was only after Jean asked him which football team he supported. He meant that he didn’t support any team. Then Jean said:

“I told him we were catholics. I was there, you know, the yapping. That bit that happened about the Bible, he came away with a crack. I said, I should know that, we’re catholics. That was the only thing that he quoted. And I don’t know whether it was just because we were talking about religion.”

Then:

”Where the hell did they get the name Bible John? If we hadn’t been talking about religion and football, that wouldn’t have come up. All I got was something about stoned at the fountain. It was a passage from the Bible. I was brought up a Catholic and I recognised it, but it was because we were talking about religion and football at the time. He did say they places were dens of iniquity or something to that effect.”

So she’s a little unclear. He used the word ‘agnostic’ which is usually used in terms of religion. He uses ‘dens of iniquity’ but the nearest the Bible gets is a ‘den of thieves.’ And ‘stoned at the fountain’ isn’t mentioned in the Bible but a ‘fountain’ is, and so is ‘stoning.’

I often wonder if Detective Joe Jackson might have been right. He recalled Jean talking to a fellow detective on the Friday morning and admitting that she wouldn’t be much help because “I had a bucketful last night.”