Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock, I'll check it out tomorrow.
Spent a couple of hours today putting my notes on the podcast episodes on to the pc.
There's loads of great stuff there.
I'm looking forward to pulling all the notes from the books and the podcast together.
I think it'll be fascinating to all the disparate facts and speculations pulled together in a, hopefully, coherent way.

It’s a pity that copy and paste isn’t available but I’ve started a time consuming and boring plan. I’m screenshotting the transcripts and putting them in folders - one page having multiple screenshots on. As you know, I don’t do tech but let me know if you want them. I think that I’ll be able to email them as a pdf. I’ve sent stuff in that form to Howard Brown in the past so it should work.

[cobalt]

The taxi route remains a puzzle to me. At present day prices it cost around £21 but should have been a bit less than that. Dropping off Jeannie first must have added a fair bit as that added an unnecessary 2 miles (?) to the trip since the taxi had to turn back from Kelso Street to Earl Street along Dumbarton Road. The taxi was effectively doubling back on itself. Presumably BJ was playing the role of the philanthropist so the women were not unduly concerned by this circuitous route, given he was footing the bill.

However this illogical route would have required some explanation from BJ. If he held hopes of a sexual congress with Helen then both she and Jeannie would surely have picked that up, albeit he could hardly have announced his intentions. Both women knew it could amount to nothing anyway given Helen's domestic arrangements. So at best they maybe figured he was on a fool's errand. Were they playing him for a bit of a straight laced mug?

Or could hard cash have lain behind BJ's pretext for the route? That is to say, he intimated that he lived in the same vicinity as Helen so he had decided to drop her off last, then make his own way home by the taxi and square up the bill as a gentleman would. Better that than leave Jeannie with some of the taxi fare when she was dropped off on her own?

As it turned out, it seems he misjudged the fare and probably Helen's intentions as well. I don't have the psychological knowledge to know which was likely the main factor in his murderous attack on her.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The taxi route remains a puzzle to me. At present day prices it cost around £21 but should have been a bit less than that. Dropping off Jeannie first must have added a fair bit as that added an unnecessary 2 miles (?) to the trip since the taxi had to turn back from Kelso Street to Earl Street along Dumbarton Road. The taxi was effectively doubling back on itself. Presumably BJ was playing the role of the philanthropist so the women were not unduly concerned by this circuitous route, given he was footing the bill.

However this illogical route would have required some explanation from BJ. If he held hopes of a sexual congress with Helen then both she and Jeannie would surely have picked that up, albeit he could hardly have announced his intentions. Both women knew it could amount to nothing anyway given Helen's domestic arrangements. So at best they maybe figured he was on a fool's errand. Were they playing him for a bit of a straight laced mug?

Or could hard cash have lain behind BJ's pretext for the route? That is to say, he intimated that he lived in the same vicinity as Helen so he had decided to drop her off last, then make his own way home by the taxi and square up the bill as a gentleman would. Better that than leave Jeannie with some of the taxi fare when she was dropped off on her own?

As it turned out, it seems he misjudged the fare and probably Helen's intentions as well. I don't have the psychological knowledge to know which was likely the main factor in his murderous attack on her.

I just checked the transcript Cobalt:

’Jean then asked if the man was going their way and Helen replied, he’s going the other way and nodded her head.’

and..

’I thought he was paying the taxi because he lived that way. He pointed to the other side. I thought he had maybe he’d stayed in Clydebank or that.’

So they were aware that they were heading in the opposite direction to where John lived.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just looked into the phrase ‘stoned at the fountain,’ which Jean said that John used. I can’t find anything like it in the Bible. Stoning is named as a punishment for fornication, adultery etc but I have found the word ‘fountain’ being used - this is the King James Version:

“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

Another version is from the English Standard Version:

“If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people.“


So in biblical terms the word ‘fountain’ refers to menstruation. So do we have Bible John actually referring menstruation and punishment?

[Ms Diddles]

I’ve just looked into the phrase ‘stoned at the fountain,’ which Jean said that John used. I can’t find anything like it in the Bible. Stoning is named as a punishment for fornication, adultery etc but I have found the word ‘fountain’ being used - this is the King James Version:

“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

Another version is from the English Standard Version:

“If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people.“


So in biblical terms the word ‘fountain’ refers to menstruation. So do we have Bible John actually referring menstruation and punishment?

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

The transcript is a bit unclear Ms D. John mentioned being ‘agnostic’ but this was only after Jean asked him which football team he supported. He meant that he didn’t support any team. Then Jean said:

“I told him we were catholics. I was there, you know, the yapping. That bit that happened about the Bible, he came away with a crack. I said, I should know that, we’re catholics. That was the only thing that he quoted. And I don’t know whether it was just because we were talking about religion.”

Then:

”Where the hell did they get the name Bible John? If we hadn’t been talking about religion and football, that wouldn’t have come up. All I got was something about stoned at the fountain. It was a passage from the Bible. I was brought up a Catholic and I recognised it, but it was because we were talking about religion and football at the time. He did say they places were dens of iniquity or something to that effect.”

So she’s a little unclear. He used the word ‘agnostic’ which is usually used in terms of religion. He uses ‘dens of iniquity’ but the nearest the Bible gets is a ‘den of thieves.’ And ‘stoned at the fountain’ isn’t mentioned in the Bible but a ‘fountain’ is, and so is ‘stoning.’

I often wonder if Detective Joe Jackson might have been right. He recalled Jean talking to a fellow detective on the Friday morning and admitting that she wouldn’t be much help because “I had a bucketful last night.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

Btw, did you see my post 89? There are transcripts of the podcasts although you can’t copy and past them. I’ve screenshotted them though and have them all in a folder. If you can’t access them for any reason it shouldn’t be a problem to send them to you.

[cobalt]

'[’Jean then asked if the man was going their way and Helen replied, he’s going the other way and nodded her head.’

and..

’I thought he was paying the taxi because he lived that way. He pointed to the other side. I thought he had maybe he’d stayed in Clydebank or that.’

So they were aware that they were heading in the opposite direction to where John lived.]'

Thanks for the transcript, but I'm not much clearer. If BJ was heading for Clydebank then they were all actually travelling in the same direction. Since Jeannie lived nearer to the Clydebank area it made no sense to drop her off first and then double back to deposit Helen. So Jeannie must have had a different impression of what 'the other side' or 'the other way' meant than Helen.

Given the possible sighting of BJ heading for the Clyde Ferry (at the Yoker/Renfrew crossing?) is it possible that BJ indicated to Helen that he lived somewhere south of the River Clyde?

[Ms Diddles]

Btw, did you see my post 89? There are transcripts of the podcasts although you can’t copy and past them. I’ve screenshotted them though and have them all in a folder. If you can’t access them for any reason it shouldn’t be a problem to send them to you.

Thanks Herlock!

That's kind of you.

I'll have a look and see if I can save them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s not particularly clear is it? I take it to mean that Jean suspected that John might have lived Clydebank way and that he was prepared to pay for the taxi because he was heading in their direction until Helen told Jean that he was actually heading in the other direction.

It’s a pity that we don’t have a map with these locations on. I can get lost where I live so in Scotland…

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock!

That's kind of you.

I'll have a look and see if I can save them.

No problem. It looks like whoever transcribed these episodes wasn’t a Scot though. There’s quite a few mispronunciations. Jean’s pronouncing of Earl Street has become Errol Street for example.

[Ms Diddles]

It’s not particularly clear is it? I take it to mean that Jean suspected that John might have lived Clydebank way and that he was prepared to pay for the taxi because he was heading in their direction until Helen told Jean that he was actually heading in the other direction.

It’s a pity that we don’t have a map with these locations on. I can get lost where I live so in Scotland…

Well, I'm familiar with these streets, but am befuddled by what "the other side" could mean in this context!

Cobalt's suggestion that he could have been referring to the southside is a distinct possibility.

[Ms Diddles]

No problem. It looks like whoever transcribed these episodes wasn’t a Scot though. There’s quite a few mispronunciations. Jean’s pronouncing of Earl Street has become Errol Street for example.

Ha! They like to roll their "r"s round here, so I can see how that would happen.

I always enjoy it when my sat-nav mispronounces Scottish place names.

Milngavie is a belter!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ha! They like to roll their "r"s round here, so I can see how that would happen.

I always enjoy it when my sat-nav mispronounces Scottish place names.

Milngavie is a belter!

Yeah, Marcello Mega certainly rolls his r’s brilliantly. I’m ok with accents, though I know some people who are thrown by even the mildest ones. My Nan was from Rosyth but 60 years of living in England had lessened her Scots accent somewhat although never came close to losing it. Her mum’s accent was naturally stronger as she never left Scotland but it certainly wasn’t as pronounced as the Glasgow accent. I loved listening to the interview with Helen Puttock’s relatives. I remember bringing a girlfriend to meet my grandparents nearly 40 years ago. My grandad had a really broad, Black Country accent and she could barely understand him. I remember telling him that I’d buy him some subtitles for Christmas.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, I'm familiar with these streets, but am befuddled by what "the other side" could mean in this context!

Cobalt's suggestion that he could have been referring to the southside is a distinct possibility.

Excuse my nosiness but were you born in Glasgow?