Bible John (General Discussion)

[cobalt]

According to Jeannie, BJ was familiar with pubs in the Yoker area which is opposite the ferry crossing from Renfrew, just north of the Clyde near where Jeannie lived. This I think- but has to be confirmed- is where a BJ suspect was spotted on a late night bus around 2am. One report states he left the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road- a main thoroughfare out of the city- and Gray Steet: but I can't find a Gray Street near the Yoker/Renfrew ferry crossing. In fact the only Gray Street I can find is nowhere near either Dumbarton Road or the River Clyde so I assume it is a mistake.

(Just to complicate matters, the Yoker/Renfrew crossing is within a few minutes from where Jeannie was dropped off prior to the taxi doubling back to Earl Street. If escaping over the River Clyde was to be BJ's MO, then he probably chose the wrong victim.)

The description given of the BJ suspect on the bus tallied with that given by Jeannie. In addition he was dishevelled, had mud on his clothing and a red mark under one eye. He also seemed to have a loose shirt sleeve under his jacket which might link with a cuff link left at the scene of Helen's murder.

The question I would like answered is how many of the following were actually asked to ID the suspect John McInnes in a line up:

Jeannie Langford
Barrowland bouncer
Barrowland manager
Patrons of Barrowland in vicinity of the foursome
William Hannah, taxi driver
Late night bus driver
Late night bus conductor
Any passengers on late night bus

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll look at this closer tomorrow Cobalt but the cold cases detectives state that Alexander Hannah, for some inexplicable reason, never attended an ID parade. They also believe that McInnes was never put in front of Jean.

The Cold Case Detectives put 12 photographs in front of Hannah; one of which was of McInnes, which they had on record due to his fraud and theft. The photo was taken a few years after the murder though. Hannah immediately picked out McInnes and even noticed that he looked older in the photo. They then showed 12 photographs to the Bouncer that was involved in the cigarette machine incident. He was confident that he’d recognise the man and immediately picked out McInnes.

On the bus issue, according to the podcast, it was said that the man got off the bus at the junction of Derby Street and Argyll Street. A 5 minute walk away was number 204 Berkeley Street which was the flat of McInnes aunt and uncle William and Janet McInnes. Apparently, although they don’t state how they came to know this, this is where John often stayed if he ever missed his last bus home.

[cobalt]

Thanks for your 'legwork' HS. It's very frustrating that so little of substance has been put in the public domain, even allowing for the case being unsolved. There now appear to be TWO late bus suspects. One disembarking somewhere on Dumbarton Road near to a ferry crossing over the River Clyde. (I have surmised the Yoker/Renfrew crossing but may be wrong.) And another one who got off near Argyll Street/Derby Street which is pretty close to the centre of Glasgow and so far as I can judge (Barn can correct me) had no obvious connection to a ferry. The question might be, which one was the man in the dishevelled state? Don't tell me there were two similar looking blokes with the same identifying features on different late night buses at 2am!

McInnes' family connection with Berkeley Square sounds very thin to me. As you say, apart from supposition, what foundation is there to the claim that McInnes ever stayed overnight there? Are there any family, friends or neighbours to confirm this?

There are those who believe Angus Sinclair was the murderer of the first victim Patricia Docker largely based, it seems, on the fact his in-laws stayed nearby. It's damn weak stuff and Sinclair's DNA was obviously on record if any survived on the victim. Sinclair was from Glasgow originally (he committed his first murder as a teenager) but on release from Edinburgh prison lived in the capital and married there in Leith Registry Office in 1970. Again, I am sure there is not a scintilla of evidence to support the claim that Sinclair ever stayed at his (prospective) in-laws house. In fact do we know that he had even met his future wife by 1968? I think she was a nurse who worked in Edinburgh; Sinclair's own family had disowned him; so why would he have been attracted back to Glasgow at that time in his life?

[Ms Diddles]

Excuse my nosiness but were you born in Glasgow?

No, I'm originally from York.

I moved up here to go to Uni when I was 18 and have stuck around for 30 years.

My mum was Scottish and my dad was a Yorkshireman, so I'm a weird English / Scottish hybrid.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for your 'legwork' HS. It's very frustrating that so little of substance has been put in the public domain, even allowing for the case being unsolved. There now appear to be TWO late bus suspects. One disembarking somewhere on Dumbarton Road near to a ferry crossing over the River Clyde. (I have surmised the Yoker/Renfrew crossing but may be wrong.) And another one who got off near Argyll Street/Derby Street which is pretty close to the centre of Glasgow and so far as I can judge (Barn can correct me) had no obvious connection to a ferry. The question might be, which one was the man in the dishevelled state? Don't tell me there were two similar looking blokes with the same identifying features on different late night buses at 2am!

McInnes' family connection with Berkeley Square sounds very thin to me. As you say, apart from supposition, what foundation is there to the claim that McInnes ever stayed overnight there? Are there any family, friends or neighbours to confirm this?

There are those who believe Angus Sinclair was the murderer of the first victim Patricia Docker largely based, it seems, on the fact his in-laws stayed nearby. It's damn weak stuff and Sinclair's DNA was obviously on record if any survived on the victim. Sinclair was from Glasgow originally (he committed his first murder as a teenager) but on release from Edinburgh prison lived in the capital and married there in Leith Registry Office in 1970. Again, I am sure there is not a scintilla of evidence to support the claim that Sinclair ever stayed at his (prospective) in-laws house. In fact do we know that he had even met his future wife by 1968? I think she was a nurse who worked in Edinburgh; Sinclair's own family had disowned him; so why would he have been attracted back to Glasgow at that time in his life?

The podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?) Then a couple of lines later we get the information about Argyll and Derby Street.


Then, in the Garcia book we get:

”Having waved goodbye, she caught a glimpse of her sister and John’s impassive face through the car window as it turned back east. It was around half midnight. That wasn’t the last sighting that night of the oddly dressed figure from the Barrowland. It was around 2 a.m. when a near-empty night bus travelling along DuThe podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?)”


In the David Wilson and Paul Harrison book we get:

“At about 2 a.m., a night bus picked up a dishevelled man who had earlier been seen walking up Dumbarton Road, which ran parallel to Earl Street. Some of the passengers noticed that he wore a dirty jacket and had a bruise on his cheek. He eventually got off the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Gray Street.”


In Steve MacGregor’s book we get:

“At around 02:00am, a Number six night service bus was travelling towards the city centre on Dumbarton Road when it stopped between Gardner Street and Fortrose Street (around two and a half miles closer to the city centre than Earl Street) to pick up a single male passenger. The driver, conductor and another passenger noted that the man looked as if he had been in a fight – his jacket was muddy and he had a scratch below one eye. The man seemed embarrassed by his appearance and a short time later, at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Derby Street, he stopped the bus and got off.”

[barnflatwyngarde]

The podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?) Then a couple of lines later we get the information about Argyll and Derby Street.


Then, in the Garcia book we get:

”Having waved goodbye, she caught a glimpse of her sister and John’s impassive face through the car window as it turned back east. It was around half midnight. That wasn’t the last sighting that night of the oddly dressed figure from the Barrowland. It was around 2 a.m. when a near-empty night bus travelling along DuThe podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?)”


In the David Wilson and Paul Harrison book we get:

“At about 2 a.m., a night bus picked up a dishevelled man who had earlier been seen walking up Dumbarton Road, which ran parallel to Earl Street. Some of the passengers noticed that he wore a dirty jacket and had a bruise on his cheek. He eventually got off the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Gray Street.”


In Steve MacGregor’s book we get:

“At around 02:00am, a Number six night service bus was travelling towards the city centre on Dumbarton Road when it stopped between Gardner Street and Fortrose Street (around two and a half miles closer to the city centre than Earl Street) to pick up a single male passenger. The driver, conductor and another passenger noted that the man looked as if he had been in a fight – his jacket was muddy and he had a scratch below one eye. The man seemed embarrassed by his appearance and a short time later, at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Derby Street, he stopped the bus and got off.”

Hi Herlock, I think that "to shevald" is probably Audrey saying "dishevelled".

The Scots brogue is a marvellous thing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, I think that "to shevald" is probably Audrey saying "dishevelled".

The Scots brogue is a marvellous thing.

Hi Barn,

I was going to have another listen to that part tonight to see if I could work it out but you’ve saved me a job. I should have sussed it but I didn’t.

Thanks

[Herlock Sholmes]

The podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?) Then a couple of lines later we get the information about Argyll and Derby Street.


Then, in the Garcia book we get:

”Having waved goodbye, she caught a glimpse of her sister and John’s impassive face through the car window as it turned back east. It was around half midnight. That wasn’t the last sighting that night of the oddly dressed figure from the Barrowland. It was around 2 a.m. when a near-empty night bus travelling along DuThe podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?)”


In the David Wilson and Paul Harrison book we get:

“At about 2 a.m., a night bus picked up a dishevelled man who had earlier been seen walking up Dumbarton Road, which ran parallel to Earl Street. Some of the passengers noticed that he wore a dirty jacket and had a bruise on his cheek. He eventually got off the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Gray Street.”


In Steve MacGregor’s book we get:

“At around 02:00am, a Number six night service bus was travelling towards the city centre on Dumbarton Road when it stopped between Gardner Street and Fortrose Street (around two and a half miles closer to the city centre than Earl Street) to pick up a single male passenger. The driver, conductor and another passenger noted that the man looked as if he had been in a fight – his jacket was muddy and he had a scratch below one eye. The man seemed embarrassed by his appearance and a short time later, at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Derby Street, he stopped the bus and got off.”

I’ve only just noticed by the way that some of the above text is mixed up. The podcast and the Garcia quote part. I made a mistake while I was posting this which caused stuff to be duplicated. I thought that I’d sorted it out but obviously I hadn’t. The emboldened part shouldn’t have been there and it’s covered some of the actual quote. Doing stuff in haste often results in ****-up’s. I still do it though. Apologies for any confusion.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn,

I was going to have another listen to that part tonight to see if I could work it out but you’ve saved me a job. I should have sussed it but I didn’t.

Thanks

No sweat!

I am typing up my notes from episode 8 of the podcast.
Like you, I am having to go back to the podcast constantly to clarify things.

I have Blue Nile playing in the background, sustaining my soul, so everything is fine!

[Herlock Sholmes]

No sweat!

I am typing up my notes from episode 8 of the podcast.
Like you, I am having to go back to the podcast constantly to clarify things.

I have Blue Nile playing in the background, sustaining my soul, so everything is fine!

You can’t beat a bit of Blue Nile.

[cobalt]

The spotting of a potential suspect on a late night bus turns out to be a real 'dug's breakfast.' HS has identified about three versions in circulation, and none of these includes the long standing claim that a suspect was seen heading towards a ferry crossing over the River Clyde.

The version which has a dishevelled BJ look-alike boarding a bus near Gardner Street at 2am might be significant. Going by the reported statements of Jeannie Langford and taxi driver Alexander Hannah, it appears Helen Puttock was likely killed between 0.45 and 1.am. A person walking from Earl Street to Gardner Street (a fairly straight route towards Glasgow city centre) would have covered the 2.5 miles in around 50 minutes, which is close enough to the time of the 2am late service bus. Allowing for the killer to attempt some crude tidying up of his person and to ditch the victim's handbag (which I believe was never recovered) the timings match rather well.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The spotting of a potential suspect on a late night bus turns out to be a real 'dug's breakfast.' HS has identified about three versions in circulation, and none of these includes the long standing claim that a suspect was seen heading towards a ferry crossing over the River Clyde.

The version which has a dishevelled BJ look-alike boarding a bus near Gardner Street at 2am might be significant. Going by the reported statements of Jeannie Langford and taxi driver Alexander Hannah, it appears Helen Puttock was likely killed between 0.45 and 1.am. A person walking from Earl Street to Gardner Street (a fairly straight route towards Glasgow city centre) would have covered the 2.5 miles in around 50 minutes, which is close enough to the time of the 2am late service bus. Allowing for the killer to attempt some crude tidying up of his person and to ditch the victim's handbag (which I believe was never recovered) the timings match rather well.

Hi cobalt, I think that the walking time would be closer to 40 minutes, but even so, the timings do seem to fit.

According to Audrey Gillan the dishevelled man got off the bus at the junction of Argyle Street and Derby Street which is about 500 yards from 204 Berkeley Street where John McInnes's aunt and uncle lived, and where he apparently sometimes stayed if he missed his last bus home to Stonehouse.

From Derby Street to Kelvin way is 400 yards, and the distance to Melrose Gardens, which was where Bavin-Mizzi's suspect John Templeton lived is 1.2 miles.

So in a nutshell, when the dishevelled man got off the bus it was handy for both Mcinness and Templeton.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is anyone on here able to knock up a street map with these locations marked? Taxi drop off points for Jean, Helen (approximation) and BJ? It would be good to get an idea of these locations in relation to each other.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi cobalt, I think that the walking time would be closer to 40 minutes, but even so, the timings do seem to fit.

According to Audrey Gillan the dishevelled man got off the bus at the junction of Argyle Street and Derby Street which is about 500 yards from 204 Berkeley Street where John McInnes's aunt and uncle lived, and where he apparently sometimes stayed if he missed his last bus home to Stonehouse.

From Derby Street to Kelvin way is 400 yards, and the distance to Melrose Gardens, which was where Bavin-Mizzi's suspect John Templeton lived is 1.2 miles.

So in a nutshell, when the dishevelled man got off the bus it was handy for both Mcinness and Templeton.

Happy 1000th post Barn.

[cobalt]

The apparent failure of police investigating the Helen Puttock murder to eliminate John McInnes from the enquiry is inexplicable. They had at least half a dozen decent eye witnesses to call upon within 48 hours of the crime- a crime where ID was considered such a central plank of the case that they even commissioned an artist to draw an impression of the suspect. Yet John McInnes, who was interviewed by police very soon after the murder, was seemingly never put on an ID parade at all. This despite his reported admission that he had attended the Barrowland the previous evening and (allegedly) an advertising card from his place of work was found at the scene. If no such card existed then it is difficult to understand why McInnes came to police attention at all.

I understand that McInnes is not recorded in police files as having been interviewed but that there are a number of former police officers who have stated that he was interviewed at Hamilton Police Station. This seems to be supported by a relative in conversation with cold case detectives. There is even local folklore to the effect that McInnes was jokingly referred to at the time as 'Bible John,' which would support his having been taken in for questioning.

Anyone of interest to the police who was 'helping them with their enquiries' in respect of a murder would be expected to: account for his movements the previous evening; to supply police with his clothing; and to undertake a cursory medical check for any recent injuries. If these drew a blank then McInnes could have been dropped down the list of suspects, perhaps eliminated. But I doubt this could have happened, otherwise the authorities would not have exhumed his remains many years later.

And short of DNA, there should still have been forensic evidence collected at the scene. There must have been some scrapings under the victim's fingernails if she was fighting for her life. There must have been some fibre transfer on her clothing, particularly her ocelot fur coat. There must have been some of the killer's hair shed during the struggle. Perhaps footprint evidence as well.

Just an afterthought on BJ's apparent handbag fetish. Maybe he understood that, after raking through the contents, he had left his fingerprints behind so he took the handbags away and dumped them for that reason.