Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok Barn I have another for you. It’s from episode 3 Jemima MacDonald. It happens at around 4.18 and two old guys are talking about the gangs that frequented the the Barrowland. I just can’t make out what they’re saying.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I was going through the bonus episode about Jemima MacDonald I got to the part where Audrey Gillan spoke to Jemima’s son Alan when he came to her flat. He bought his granddaughter Samantha with him. Samantha had been researching the case and showed Audrey a newspaper photo of the Barrowland during a packed night with the crowd watching a saxophonist (with an old fashioned microphone in front of him) She felt that Jemima was in the picture (Audrey said that the woman that she pointed to was 5 or 6 rows back) Audrey doesn’t really think it is her though. She says that next to her is a man that she thinks is Bible John. He’s wearing glasses but Samantha says that anyone can wear glasses as a disguise. I’d always wanted to see that photo so I’ve been looking.

I think that I’ve found the picture and I can see and woman who might resemble Jemima standing next to a man with glasses who does look much like Bible John to me. The couple are about a quarter of the way into the photo from the viewers right.

Nearer the stage but almost directly in front , also wearing glasses, is a man that looks more like the Bible John in the Patterson portrait though. I’m certainly not claiming that it is him though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=barrowland+dancing+band&sca_esv=e530de37feccd403&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&udm=2&biw=1024&bih=1242&sxsrf=AE3TifO2o-iapxbxswwVQEgceqp8Xe-iSg%3A1754605513501&ei=ySeVaOKqHs6uhbIP5q2ZyA4&oq=barrowland+dancing+band&gs_lp=EhJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWciF2JhcnJvd2xhbmQgZGFuY2luZyBiYW5kMggQABiiBBiJBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGKIEGIkFMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIxkpQ5wtY7UZwAXgAkAEAmAFKoAGAC6oBAjI0uAEDyAEA-AEBmAIYoALiCsICBxAjGCcYyQLCAgYQABgIGB7CAgUQABiABMICBBAAGB6YAwCIBgGSBwIyNKAHh1ayBwIyM7gH3QrCBwYzLjIwLjHIByU&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img#sv=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

[cobalt]

Judging by the men's hairstyles (no sideburns and a fair few quiffs) the photo looks like it's from around 1964. I don't think there would have been many saxophonists still playing solo at the Barrowland in 1969. Maybe someone can date it better by examining the women's hairstyles and dresses.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock. For some reason link not working for me. Are others finding this. probably me.
NW

[New Waterloo]

Have now got it. Excellent
NW

[New Waterloo]

The good news is that the photo is pretty clear so thats a real help but I am inclined to think that the photo is earlier than 1969 as Cobalt suggests. I was born 1960 and my sister was some 9 years older than me so about 18 in 1969. I recall her going out and seem to think by 1969 fashion was getting a bit more casual and hippy. Patterns and flowery but we lived more towards London and maybe still a bit more old fashioned in Scotland. I am possibly talking load of rubbish so apologies if not correct.

it is such a good photo find though. Really good.
NW

[New Waterloo]

I notice from the much published cictim photo that Jemima MacDonald had what appeas to be a quite ‘heavy’ jaw. The woman in the photograph seems very similar to me. There is a strong likeness because of the jaw I believe. So maybe it could be her. The glasses on the man trouble me. I font think has been any mention of glasses has there. I don't buy the glasses thing as a disguise. He seems fairly well built to me. Just observations
NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

Ok Barn I have another for you. It’s from episode 3 Jemima MacDonald. It happens at around 4.18 and two old guys are talking about the gangs that frequented the the Barrowland. I just can’t make out what they’re saying.

Hi Herlock, from 4.10 the conversation is as follows:

"I used to go to the Barrowland at the same time, I'm 76 tomorrow".
"Are you? Happy birthday".
"You used to have your street gangs, you know, you used to have the Calton Tongs down there, the Bridgeton Derry, the San Toi, all the street gangs, they knew each other and all that."
"Street gangs went up the Barrowland?"
"Was it as rough as they say?".
"Well it was no mean city, you know. They used to carry razor blades and razors. That was thirty year ago you know"

I hope this helps.
If you have any other problems translating working class Glaswegian, just let me know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, from 4.10 the conversation is as follows:

"I used to go to the Barrowland at the same time, I'm 76 tomorrow".
"Are you? Happy birthday".
"You used to have your street gangs, you know, you used to have the Calton Tongs down there, the Bridgeton Derry, the San Toi, all the street gangs, they knew each other and all that."
"Street gangs went up the Barrowland?"
"Was it as rough as they say?".
"Well it was no mean city, you know. They used to carry razor blades and razors. That was thirty year ago you know"

I hope this helps.
If you have any other problems translating working class Glaswegian, just let me know.

Thanks a lot Barn. I’m usually ok with the accents but there are always some parts which beat me and this was certainly one. Especially the gang names.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I notice from the much published cictim photo that Jemima MacDonald had what appeas to be a quite ‘heavy’ jaw. The woman in the photograph seems very similar to me. There is a strong likeness because of the jaw I believe. So maybe it could be her. The glasses on the man trouble me. I font think has been any mention of glasses has there. I don't buy the glasses thing as a disguise. He seems fairly well built to me. Just observations
NW

Hi NW,

Yes, it’s the jaw that stands out and makes me see a similarity at least but that’s possibly all that it is. It seems to me that Jemima’s jaw is more ‘pronounced’ for want of a much better word. Jemima also appears to have darker hair than the woman in the photograph.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is another, better photo of Jemima.
She looks a happy young woman, and I think a more human person than the other well known photo.

I don't think that this has been uploaded here, apologies if it has been.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for posting Barn. A happy looking young woman who, like Pat and Helen, were horribly slurred just for wanting the odd night out dancing.

[Ms Diddles]

Here is another, better photo of Jemima.
She looks a happy young woman, and I think a more human person than the other well known photo.

I don't think that this has been uploaded here, apologies if it has been.

I don't think I've seen this picture before, Barn.

Thanks for posting.

I agree that you get much more of a sense of her personality from this photo than the usual slightly out of focus one that we see a lot.

Sad, she looks happy and nice.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I have already uploaded this picture, but I have managed to upscale it, which makes the image much clearer.

It shows Joe Beattie in the Incident Room with photofits of Bible John on the board behind him.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well that didn't go as planned.

If I can find a way to make the image larger I'll have another go.

Frustrating!!