Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[cobalt]

I don't think these two comments are quite the same, although I agree they share a pompous morality.

The dance halls as 'dens of iniquity' comment is a very general comment not specific to any of Glasgow's many dancehalls of the time which included The Barrowland, The Majestic. the Dennistoun Palais, the Locarno and the the Plaza. It's the type of comment made by a person who has never been inside any of these premises. The sort of comment a moralising parent might offer across the dinner table.

However the insurance fraud claim was made quite specifically about the Barrowland which had indeed been destroyed by fire in 1958, a decade before the killings. A 14 year old boy who had never been in a dancehall would hardly have distinguished one venue from another, even at his parents' promptings. Especially ten years later. But a patron who remembered the 'scandal' would have been confident enough to throw out the allegation in the heat of the moment. This doesn't necessarily point to McInnes but it does indicate someone in his age profile to me. As indeed do the ages of the victims.

[New Waterloo]

Just been listening the BBC Blog again. I think McInnes being older and with members of his family police officers the matter regarding the fire would have been more likely in his mind than Templeton. Having said that Templeton by the very nature of his job would have been well read and more academic so may have been aware of the accusations through reading reports, newspapers etc. Good points by Cobalt and all.

A couple of other things struck me while listening. Probably been mentioned before but there will in no doubt be photographs of Mcinnes taken when he was arrested and charged with offences. Have these ever been released. Probably some time restriction on their publication although it is true to say that we do often see 'mug shots' of offenders taken of offenders recently charged so not sure how that is able to happen.

Also when listening to the Blog there seems to be some early confusion regarding his description. The army describes McInnes as a 'heavy slow man' where past neighbours describe him as very thin and sparrow like when talking of descriptions during a similar time period. This is odd.

Of course he may have put on more body mass whilst in the army. Just an observation. Don't know where it takes us really but did wonder if the army report was talking about the right man and not another person with the surname McInnes.

NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later. To me the allegation supports the belief that BJ, with his slightly out of fashion look, was nearer to 30 than a man in his mid 20s.

For the second point I am relying on Barn's personal impressions of John Templeton. Throwing out wild allegations of corruption with the risk of being forcibly ejected from the premises does not fit with the picture Barn has supplied to us of John Templeton, the Glasgow Library attendant. And I doubt that flashing a Glasgow Library ticket would carry much weight in the Barrowland.

Hi Cobalt,
I think that you make some interesting points.
The story about the Barrowland fire being an "insurance job" is one that would have circulated and spread via pubs and other forms of the social grapevine.
I can't imagine that it was ever reported in the press and media.

And yes, after 10 years, it is surprising that the killer would bring it up in conversation, and lends credence to cobalt's theory that the killer would be closer to thirty years old.

Again, cobalt makes a good point re the incident about the cigarette machine.
I did meet John Templeton on quite a few occasions and spoke to him quite a few times, and having thought about it, the John Templeton I knew was, in my opinion, unlikely to get into a possible ruck with some tough Barrowland bouncers.

So, well done cobalt for teasing out these interesting points.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just been listening the BBC Blog again. I think McInnes being older and with members of his family police officers the matter regarding the fire would have been more likely in his mind than Templeton. Having said that Templeton by the very nature of his job would have been well read and more academic so may have been aware of the accusations through reading reports, newspapers etc. Good points by Cobalt and all.

A couple of other things struck me while listening. Probably been mentioned before but there will in no doubt be photographs of Mcinnes taken when he was arrested and charged with offences. Have these ever been released. Probably some time restriction on their publication although it is true to say that we do often see 'mug shots' of offenders taken of offenders recently charged so not sure how that is able to happen.

Also when listening to the Blog there seems to be some early confusion regarding his description. The army describes McInnes as a 'heavy slow man' where past neighbours describe him as very thin and sparrow like when talking of descriptions during a similar time period. This is odd.

Of course he may have put on more body mass whilst in the army. Just an observation. Don't know where it takes us really but did wonder if the army report was talking about the right man and not another person with the surname McInnes.

NW

Hi NW,

I seem to recall that the taxi driver, Alexander Hannah, was shown a photograph of McInnes which had been taken after his arrest for a previous offence. He not only identified him but he also pointed out that he looked younger in the mugshot. (I believe that this was in the podcast btw)

[barnflatwyngarde]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

Like you Barn I don’t know how the set-up worked but as a Superintendent it’s perhaps not that surprising that Beattie would have overseen multiple case with perhaps a Chief Inspector looking after the day to day running of each individual case?

I wonder when any news will be forthcoming of the investigation that Glasgow Police are supposed to be undertaking as a result of Audrey Gillian’s podcast?

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes in the Podcast I now recall. Must stop calling it a Blog (its an age thing)

Hannahs ID seems very convincing and I think carries some weight. It is quite something to be so positive after several years.

I think I will listen again to the Podcast and Jeannie's recollection. I get the feeling we are missing something about that journey.

I have to remind myself of the other victims movements after leaving the Barrowlands.

NE

[cobalt]

On a political level, I'm slightly surprised the Bible John investigation lasted until 1972. The tabloids are often criticised for exploiting crime to boost sales, but had an inspired Glasgow newspaper sub editor not contrived the ingenious moniker 'Bible John' would many of us today have even been aware of these murders? The media focus probably helped drive the initial investigation.

The female victims were from the lower social class and, horror of horrors, had actually been out enjoying themselves. Had they not been grouped together under the Bible John soubriquet I suspect they would have long been forgotten. In that sense the sub editor did the victims and we seekers after justice a service.

A few thought on BJ's remark as remembered by Jeannie: 'My father says these places are dens of iniquity.' It's a strange type of mature adult who quotes his father's moral precepts inside a dance hall. Not much of a pick up line in its own right. A bit of a turn off I would think. Did you ever go to a dance hall and say to a prospective (sexual) partner, 'My mum/dad says?' It's a passion killer.

Remember he is uttering the words inside one of the very establishments his father has denounced. So how can BJ be claiming his father as a moral authority whilst at the same time flouting the very authority he is proclaiming? It is completely contradictory: he either accepts his father's moral precepts or he does not. So what's he doing here dancing around looking for a shag? Is he a religious fanatic or a atheistic rebel? Maybe Helen and Jeannie should have sensed something awry here, as the bouncers and manager did. Maybe they did but settled for a cheap taxi home.

Finally, the word 'father' if accurately reported is a little unusual. In conversationalist Scots the forms 'dad,' 'da,' or 'faither' were more common and still are to this day. 'Father' has a clear religious resonance which actually anticipates the Bible John blather that Jeannie remembered in the taxi journey. BJ's form of register was clearly that of a religious person in my view which seemed a bit 'cute' at the time to Helen and Jeannie but turned out to be lethal. Such a man must have had this as a regular feature of his verbal discourse. It could hardly be hidden. Barn has no memory of such a register from Templeton.

[Ms Diddles]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

That's interesting, Barn!

Perhaps our perceptions are coloured by the well-worn tropes of crime fiction.

The dedicated murder detective whose lazer-focus on one specific crime leads to the break-up of his marriage and descent into alcohol abuse / substance misuse or madness (delete as appropriate).

Perhaps the reality is far more prosaic?

[barnflatwyngarde]

That's interesting, Barn!

Perhaps our perceptions are coloured by the well-worn tropes of crime fiction.

The dedicated murder detective whose lazer-focus on one specific crime leads to the break-up of his marriage and descent into alcohol abuse / substance misuse or madness (delete as appropriate).

Perhaps the reality is far more prosaic?

Hi Ms D, Yeah, I thought the information I found out about Joe Beattie was striking.

But I suppose that it is only striking if you come at it from the position of assuming that the leadership of a team looking for a triple killing serial killer would be a full time job.

The papers reported that in one of the 1970 murder cases Beattie was involved in, he was the lead officer, and in the other he was co-lead officer.
In the other cases, his exact role is not specified.

I wrote in my post that the Bible John murder squad was in existence from 1968-1972.
This was a date that I got from the internet, but I have tried, without success to find any corroboration for these exact dates, so I think that they should be treated with caution.

It just strikes me as strange that the hunt for a serial killer was not given top priority.

[Ms Diddles]

A few thought on BJ's remark as remembered by Jeannie: 'My father says these places are dens of iniquity.' It's a strange type of mature adult who quotes his father's moral precepts inside a dance hall. Not much of a pick up line in its own right. A bit of a turn off I would think. Did you ever go to a dance hall and say to a prospective (sexual) partner, 'My mum/dad says?' It's a passion killer.

Agree!

"These places are dens of iniquity" would be pompous enough, but "my father says these places are dens of iniquity" takes it to a whole other level of prissy!

I guess it's not inconsistent with his "you know what happened to the adulterous woman" and "I prayed at Hogmanay" chat.

In terms of his patter, he certainly was not a skilled operator!


Remember he is uttering the words inside one of the very establishments his father has denounced. So how can BJ be claiming his father as a moral authority whilst at the same time flouting the very authority he is proclaiming? It is completely contradictory: he either accepts his father's moral precepts or he does not. So what's he doing here dancing around looking for a shag? Is he a religious fanatic or a atheistic rebel?

very good point and something that I'd not considered before.

Maybe Helen and Jeannie should have sensed something awry here, as the bouncers and manager did. Maybe they did but settled for a cheap taxi home.

This is something I've pondered but not reached any conclusions about.

On the one hand, it seems likely that on leaving the Barrowlands Helen and Jeannie were in it for a free ride home.

However as the journey progressed and it was suggested that the taxi was to drop Jeannie off first and then double back to drop Helen, there could have been no doubt that BJ's intention was to get Helen alone.

This would have been immediately apparent to both Helen and Jeannie.

I can only assume from this that Helen was "up for it" and Jeannie was aware of that and happy to facilitate.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there would have been some form of surreptitious communication between the sisters to establish that Helen was indeed wanting to be left alone with BJ.

That's generally how it works!

IIRC Jeannie said something like she got out of the taxi round the corner or just along from her house as she didn't want BJ to see where she lived (or did I imagine that?).

I guess she must have sensed something a bit "off" but didn't want to spoil Helen's fun, probably assuming that Helen could handle the weirdo with the crap patter!


Finally, the word 'father' if accurately reported is a little unusual. In conversationalist Scots the forms 'dad,' 'da,' or 'faither' were more common and still are to this day. 'Father' has a clear religious resonance which actually anticipates the Bible John blather that Jeannie remembered in the taxi journey. BJ's form of register was clearly that of a religious person in my view which seemed a bit 'cute' at the time to Helen and Jeannie but turned out to be lethal. Such a man must have had this as a regular feature of his verbal discourse. It could hardly be hidden. Barn has no memory of such a register from Templeton.

Interesting thoughts Cobalt!

[New Waterloo]

Just listened to the Podcast again. In particular the Bonus Episode where Jeannie (an actor) talks of the taxi journey and Episode 5. I did believe that BJ uses the taxi to remove himself away from the area he lives or where he has left his car. But I am somewhat troubled by this.

According to the taxi driver he says that there is a discussion regarding BJ not having the money and that Helen finds some money in her purse for the fare. She gives this to BJ who according to the taxi driver then leans into the drivers window and pays the fare.

Leaning into the window seems reckless to the extreme. He could have said to Helen on leaving the taxi 'pay the man' and walked away. Leaning in himself gives the taxi driver a clear view of him (BJ). Very odd for someone planning to kill somebody. Surely he would have got out of the taxi and ensured his back was facing the cab not exposing his face too much. He was also by my calculation sitting one side of the cab (Helen in the middle I think) so the taxi driver would not have a clear view of him in his mirror.

I am going to listen again see if I have that right

NW

[cobalt]

Following up on the point made by NW about relative positions inside the taxi, do we know what the seating arrangements were inside the Barrowland Ballroom? Given Jeannie's quite detailed description I have always assumed that there were small tables at the edge of the dance floor where dancers could have a seat between dances. That would have allowed Jeannie to look across and observe both BJ and CJ.

But maybe I am wrong. A witness in the Jemima MacDonald case remembered seeing her sitting next to a man (similar to the later BJ description) on a settee inside the dancehall. Having to turn and look sideways at a person sat close is not ideal in getting a full picture I don't think, for you lose a bit of perspective. This would have certainly have been the situation inside the taxi as NW noted.

[cobalt]

I asked in a previous post who exactly who BJ thought he was. I'm now going to venture into territory I find uncomfortable but it may help shed some light.

I have always assumed that BJ's attacks were a response to being thwarted from sexual activity by women who were menstruating at the the time. There is some of sort of crude logic to support that theory from a male perspective. But what if the opposite was the case? That BJ's murderous rage was sparked by women prepared to have sex with him while they were still menstruating?

The Jemima MacDonald case is the strongest support for this. She, but not BJ, knew about the abandoned tenement a few blocks from her own apartment. She was quite relaxed in his company and even waved to a neighbour while speaking to him. She might not have wanted him in her flat but it's hard to think a big raw boned woman like her could have been easily forced into an abandoned tenement against her will. She may have gone there willingly.

The Helen Puttock case is more problematic. She had a husband waiting at home and she had directed the taxi to her address. It' s hard to see that BJ's chat up lines would have persuaded her to abandon all morality. Yet Ms Diddles has suggested she may have been open to some romantic overtures after BJ's taxi route became clear to Helen and her sister. It's hard to argue against the hard reality of that. So despite the taxi driver's evidence of a dispute, was Helen open to some sort of carnal activity a few doors down from her flat, activity that sparked the fury of BJ when he discovered she was menstruating?

I haven't wished to be prurient and hope I have not offended anyone, especially the family of the victims. I still think a key element is not the medical situation of the women but the fact they were all murdered so close to, but not inside, their homes. In serial killing this might be unique.

[New Waterloo]

Hi all. Cobalt raises a good point about the menstruating factor in these murders. I am inclined to believe that this could be a trigger for his behavior and could explain BJs relaxed attitude to concealing his identity when at the Barrowlands and in the taxi.

I mean lets be honest here. if BJ was planning to murder somebody he would hardly make himself so visible at the club (the disagreement at the cigarette machine) and then get a taxi. He was in the company of Jeannie and remember Castlemilk John. BJ would have not have known that Castlemilk would stay silent. He was there for everybody to see. In fact so many did see him that it beggars belief that even now we cant determine who BJ was. (I am of course talking of BJ being the person in the taxi and at the club with Helen)

Anyway yes agree with Cobalts suggestion that its at the point he becomes aware that the victim is menstruating that he turns and he becomes the awful person that he was.

NW