Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep!

That's where I'm at with this.

I suppose I'm instinctively quite taken with this theory as

1) I'm in Glasgow and the geography and cultural references of Templeton as BJ make perfect sense. It feels right to me.

2) I was impressed by the unforced way that the pieces of the puzzle (ie the possible coincidences you list above) fell into place for Jill without any of the usual shoe-horning and cherry-picking.

That said, Cobalt's points above are all valid. I would not be confident enough to dismiss McInnes either.

It really comes down to what the truth is about the DNA.

Either way it's been fascinating to see a new suspect theory that is being given serious consideration on here, and hasn't immediately been torn to shreds.

It’s well and truly open as far as I’m concerned Ms D. All of Cobalt’s points are valid. It’s a head-scratcher. I know that it’s not the ‘be all and end all’ of the Templeton discussion but I just can’t help thinking “after all of that research what are the chances of finally zeroing in on a guy and discovering that he looks more like the Patterson portrait than McInnes’s does?”

[Ms Diddles]

It’s well and truly open as far as I’m concerned Ms D. All of Cobalt’s points are valid. It’s a head-scratcher. I know that it’s not the ‘be all and end all’ of the Templeton discussion but I just can’t help thinking “after all of that research what are the chances of finally zeroing in on a guy and discovering that he looks more like the Patterson portrait than McInnes’s does?”

Agreed!

To flip it, if it was Templeton then the Moylan's card is a hell of a coincidence too.

But one or the other IS a red herring (unless they were both BJ obviously!!)

[barnflatwyngarde]

Cobalt is right in saying that there must be a mountain of evidence stored in Police Scotland somewhere, probaly Glasgow HQ, or possibly still in Partick station.

His summation of statements that must be in the police files is pretty comprehensive, however there are two other important witnesses who are rarely mentioned.

On page 40 of "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", Charles Stoddart refers to "a boy" who saw Jemima MacDonald and a man "sitting in a pub", and "a girl" who saw them sitting on a settee in the Barrowland.

No names are given for these two witnesses, but presumably their statements and names are in the police files.

Jeannie Langford is clearly the person wo saw most of Bible John, as did "Castlemilk John".
So her description of the killer carries some evidential weight, but what about all the other people who saw Bible John?

As cobalt points out the list is extensive; the Barrowland manager, The Barrowland bouncers, Taxi driver Alex Hannah, the boy who saw the killer with Jemima, the girl who saw the killer with Jemima, unnamed witness(es) who saw Jemima in the company of a man in Bain Street and in London Road, there may be others that we don't know about.

We know that Lennox Paterson relied heavily on Jeannie Langford, what we don't know is whether any of the other witnesses had an input.

We can safely assume, I think, that these other witnesses did in fact provide statements which led to photfits being produced.
The photograph which shows Joe Beattie in the incident room shows seven different photofits/artist impressions.

The witness statements which went along with these photofits would surely be fascinating reading.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Agreed!

To flip it, if it was Templeton then the Moylan's card is a hell of a coincidence too.

But one or the other IS a red herring (unless they were both BJ obviously!!)

Cease and desist Ms D!

This case is tricky enough without trying to get our heads round a pair of killers.

By the way, I agree with you re the geography of the city areas relating to Templeton and the man seen getting off the bus.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cobalt is right in saying that there must be a mountain of evidence stored in Police Scotland somewhere, probaly Glasgow HQ, or possibly still in Partick station.

His summation of statements that must be in the police files is pretty comprehensive, however there are two other important witnesses who are rarely mentioned.

On page 40 of "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", Charles Stoddart refers to "a boy" who saw Jemima MacDonald and a man "sitting in a pub", and "a girl" who saw them sitting on a settee in the Barrowland.

No names are given for these two witnesses, but presumably their statements and names are in the police files.

Jeannie Langford is clearly the person wo saw most of Bible John, as did "Castlemilk John".
So her description of the killer carries some evidential weight, but what about all the other people who saw Bible John?

As cobalt points out the list is extensive; the Barrowland manager, The Barrowland bouncers, Taxi driver Alex Hannah, the boy who saw the killer with Jemima, the girl who saw the killer with Jemima, unnamed witness(es) who saw Jemima in the company of a man in Bain Street and in London Road, there may be others that we don't know about.

We know that Lennox Paterson relied heavily on Jeannie Langford, what we don't know is whether any of the other witnesses had an input.

We can safely assume, I think, that these other witnesses did in fact provide statements which led to photfits being produced.
The photograph which shows Joe Beattie in the incident room shows seven different photofits/artist impressions.

The witness statements which went along with these photofits would surely be fascinating reading.

Absolutely Barn. Then there was the cold case investigation too (mentioned in the podcast) They would have had access to all of that evidence.

[Ms Diddles]

Cobalt is right in saying that there must be a mountain of evidence stored in Police Scotland somewhere, probaly Glasgow HQ, or possibly still in Partick station.

Frustrating isn't it?

You wanna go check it out?

You can shin up the drainpipe and climb in the bathroom window.

I'll keep a lookout and drive the getaway car!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Frustrating isn't it?

You wanna go check it out?

You can shin up the drainpipe and climb in the bathroom window.

I'll keep a lookout and drive the getaway car!

I'm sorely tempted Ms D.

Am I right in thinking that somewhere in police files relating to the case, there will be an "index" of all the evidence, statements, forensics etc?

If there is, then it would be easy to ascertain if any evidence is missing by matching each entry in the index to the actual statement/evidence.

[Abby Normal]

The only other Gillan that I know is the lead singer of Deep Purple.

saw deep purple with yes in concert last summer lol. Ian Gillan still has pipes!!

[barnflatwyngarde]

saw deep purple with yes in concert last summer lol. Ian Gillan still has pipes!!

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

[Herlock Sholmes]

saw deep purple with yes in concert last summer lol. Ian Gillan still has pipes!!

Yeah he’s still got a great voice Abby. He can’t shatter a glass at 100 yards like he used to but hey..he’s 80 in August.

I love Yes too but I much prefer them with Jon Anderson.

[cobalt]

I'm not dismissing Templeton as a suspect and when I said there will never be any DNA proof I was thinking in terms of legal proof. Unless a sample can be taken from his person then I do not think that any other DNA is admissible evidence in court. If there was DNA from a uniform jacket he left in the Mitchell Library locker, one that could be definitely be connected solely to Templeton, that might be a grey area legally I imagine. But I doubt the locker was 'retired' in honour of his service so there must be various mixtures of DNA that have accumulated inside it since over the years. So it's really a dead end even if the Helen Puttock sample is still usable.

I think the JBM theory has been strengthened by contributions on this site. Ms Diddles' geographic knowledge of Glasgow has been really helpful and how many murder mystery sites have a contributor like Barn who actually knew and spoke to a leading suspect! His recollection of Templeton's manner and dress certainly fits with much of the testimony from Jeannie Langford, the main witness.

Interestingly, the photofit pictures behind Joe Beattie (one of which actually resembles him!) are as a group distinct from the iconic portrait that is placed high to the right. They show harder looking faces often with a widow's peak hairline (bar one which has a Beatles fringe) that I would imagine was more representative of the average looking guy who attended the Barrowland for an over 25s night. They veer more towards McInnes than Templeton, although you might argue the reverse applies with the Lennox Paterson sketch. Barn and I have have listed a number of witnesses whose testimony would be helpful: I wonder what their view of the portrait was? I know Jeannie was very satisfied but I can't be alone in seeing the portrait as rather rosy cheeked and idealised; the more photographic impressions and e-fits retain a more authentic look.

I think one common feature of the witness statements was the colour of BJ's hair as remembered on the nights of both the Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock murders. Described as 'reddish' or 'sandy' or 'light brown,' it does not point to Templeton I don't think.

[Abby Normal]

fascinating thread, im a noob to this case. couple of noob questions... what is the significance of the moylans card and how does it tie or not tie either Mcinnis or templeton to the case?

Was templeton ever a suspect before this new book?

[barnflatwyngarde]

fascinating thread, im a noob to this case. couple of noob questions... what is the significance of the moylans card and how does it tie or not tie either Mcinnis or templeton to the case?

Was templeton ever a suspect before this new book?

Hi Abby,
The Moylan's card is significant because John McInnes worked in Moylan's furniture store.

John Templeton was interviewed at least once by police because Jeannie Langford, who was the sister of the last victim, shared a taxi with the killer and said that he said his name was something like Templeton, or Sempleson or Emerson.

There is no evidence that John Templeton was ever considered a suspect for any other reason apart from his name.

Presumably the police felt the need to track down men in Glasgow with that name, or something similar.

Yes Abby, it's an absolutely fascinating case.
There have been some great contributions by Herlock, Ms Diddles, cobalt and others.

[cobalt]

The Moylan's card is linked to McInnes since he worked as a salesman for the furniture company at the time. Since it was found at the scene of the final murder of Helen Puttock we assume that is what led the police to interview McInnes and two of his colleagues. The furniture company itself was 12 miles from Glasgow in a neighbouring town near where McInnes lived. We know that two of McInnes' colleagues attended the Barrowland ballroom that night and it seems that McInnes was there as well, but this has never been confirmed since there is no written evidence of his interview having taken place. All of the above came via a later police re-investigation.

Templeton was only interviewed by police about 6 months after the murder and it seems this was a routine enquiry based on his name being very similar to the one remembered by Helen Puttock's sister. Templeton himself referred to a second interview- and it would be interesting to know if this happened and why- but the author of the recent book does mention a second interview.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wasn’t aware of this.

https://deadline.com/2024/01/bible-john-bbc-drama-series-1235705786/