Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Ms Diddles]

Lucky you. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Iron Maiden. Always a good show. Enjoy (although the Jaffa cakes might be few and far between)

Yep! More pints of warm beer and the smell of sweaty rockers!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep! More pints of warm beer and the smell of sweaty rockers!!

Ridiculously expensive pints of warm beer too.

[OneRound]

Hi OneRound!

That's a question that I have spent much of today pondering!

I would say that Jill's credentials are impeccable and her research is meticulous.

One thing that was very apparent is that she herself seems to have been quite surprised as the pieces of the jigsaw apparently slotted together bit by bit.

There was none of the usual shoe-horning, and I'd say only the lightest smattering of cherry-picking (which is probably inevitable in any suspect theory).

For me it all hinges on the credibility of the DNA sample.

I don't personally have a good enough knowledge of this aspect of the case, or understanding of DNA to be certain.

IF the DNA taken from Helen Puttock's tights was a usable sample and IF it ruled out John McInnes but indicated someone who was related to him, then I would be inclined to think she's nailed it.

I just have reservations about the quality of the sample and also the conflicting interpretations that I've heard around whether it really ruled out McInnes or was too corrupted to be definitive.

Jill herself was adamant that the DNA meant it could categorically NOT have been McInnes.

Her theory requires me to accept that BJ gave his real name in the taxi, which I struggle with, and there are bits of the "padding" which I can't accept (eg BJ as a moralist who only killed menstruating women to ensure that he wasn't killing his own "child").

That said, she was utterly credible and made a very convincing case.

Her talk definitely edged me closer to her way of thinking.

I really just need to get into the nitty-gritty of the DNA evidence.

Does anyone else have any wisdom to share re this aspect of the case?

Hi Ms Diddles,

Thank you for your characteristically considered and thoughtful response.

Kind regards,
OneRound

[cobalt]

I haven't access to Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book so can only sum up my thoughts based on what I have read on this site. Both Ms Diddles and Barn have been very helpful in that regard.

1. If JBM can't place Templeton in the Barrowland Ballroom then she is putting all her eggs in the DNA basket. It's not enough to say that he met his wife in a dance hall: half of the married men in Glasgow could have said that back in the 1960s. Without a previous friend or work colleague to confirm that Templeton was an occasional patron of the Barrowland then her case is seriously weakened.

2. Jeannie was insistent that BJ was slightly old fashioned for the time in terms of his hair and overall appearance. The photo on this site of Templeton, from I think 1967, shows a man very much 'with it' in terms of his hair styling and modest sideburns. (Peter Tobin has a similar look in one of his contemporary photos.) In the following period when the murders took place, hair and sideburns generally became longer and, being guided by Templeton's snazzy appearance as described by Barn, I can't see him not following the trend. This would put him even further away from the staid BJ look captured in the famous portrait.

3. The former Mrs. Templeton's equanimity concerning her husband possibly being a serial killer has been commented on by others. It is decidedly strange since we would assume a wife to be either strenuously in denial she shared her bed with such a man or alternatively she might want to 'stick the knife in' as a form of posthumous revenge.

What is missing surely is an account of the wife racking her brains in terms of times and dates of the murders, wondering if it could possibly be him. As a newly married wife she would have been very observant about her husband's movements; the fastidious Templeton doesn't come across as a person likely to return from a lad's night out minus a cuff link with scratches on his face. Most newly married men didn't often go out without their wives in any case. He must have aroused some suspicion on a general level at the time, irrespective of the BJ case, if he was returning home alone in such condition. After all, Templeton wasn't working as a taxi driver or a bouncer.

Obviously it is difficult to remember exact times and dates so many years later, but a young married couple have many helpful landmarks to tie down the calendar in terms of children being born, moving house, holidays etc. In my experience whilst men can accurately date earlier events by reference to football matches and work situations, women are very strong on family matters. It's odd that the ex-Mrs. Templeton does not appear to have gone down this road.

4. If Templeton was indeed BJ, where does that leave the Moylan's furniture advertising card found at the scene of the Helen Puttock murder? Did Templeton discover it as a marker in a library book and decide to carry it on his person?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I haven't access to Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book so can only sum up my thoughts based on what I have read on this site. Both Ms Diddles and Barn have been very helpful in that regard.

1. If JBM can't place Templeton in the Barrowland Ballroom then she is putting all her eggs in the DNA basket. It's not enough to say that he met his wife in a dance hall: half of the married men in Glasgow could have said that back in the 1960s. Without a previous friend or work colleague to confirm that Templeton was an occasional patron of the Barrowland then her case is seriously weakened.

2. Jeannie was insistent that BJ was slightly old fashioned for the time in terms of his hair and overall appearance. The photo on this site of Templeton, from I think 1967, shows a man very much 'with it' in terms of his hair styling and modest sideburns. (Peter Tobin has a similar look in one of his contemporary photos.) In the following period when the murders took place, hair and sideburns generally became longer and, being guided by Templeton's snazzy appearance as described by Barn, I can't see him not following the trend. This would put him even further away from the staid BJ look captured in the famous portrait.

3. The former Mrs. Templeton's equanimity concerning her husband possibly being a serial killer has been commented on by others. It is decidedly strange since we would assume a wife to be either strenuously in denial she shared her bed with such a man or alternatively she might want to 'stick the knife in' as a form of posthumous revenge.

What is missing surely is an account of the wife racking her brains in terms of times and dates of the murders, wondering if it could possibly be him. As a newly married wife she would have been very observant about her husband's movements; the fastidious Templeton doesn't come across as a person likely to return from a lad's night out minus a cuff link with scratches on his face. Most newly married men didn't often go out without their wives in any case. He must have aroused some suspicion on a general level at the time, irrespective of the BJ case, if he was returning home alone in such condition. After all, Templeton wasn't working as a taxi driver or a bouncer.

Obviously it is difficult to remember exact times and dates so many years later, but a young married couple have many helpful landmarks to tie down the calendar in terms of children being born, moving house, holidays etc. In my experience whilst men can accurately date earlier events by reference to football matches and work situations, women are very strong on family matters. It's odd that the ex-Mrs. Templeton does not appear to have gone down this road.

4. If Templeton was indeed BJ, where does that leave the Moylan's furniture advertising card found at the scene of the Helen Puttock murder? Did Templeton discover it as a marker in a library book and decide to carry it on his person?

Hi cobalt, you are correct in saying that we cannot definitely place Templeton at the Barrowland, while we can possibly place McInnes at the Barrowland via the evidence of Mrs Palka and someone called Jessie who sang at the Barrowland. It is very possible that Mrs Palka and Jessie are the same person.

I am not sure about your second point regarding the killers dress sense and style. It seems to me to be one of the many "unknowable" aspects of the case.

I agree with you re Mrs Templeton's attitude to being interviewed by Ms Bavin-Mizzi. It is almost as if she had no view either way regarding the possibilty that her husband had been a killer. Very strange!

The Moylan's card is a pivotal piece of evidence that simply refuses to go away, and we know that the police regarded it as important.

To my mind all roads still lead to Stonehouse and John McInnes, although we should bear in mind that the police today have not excluded Templeton from the case.
Remember that they swabbed the locker that John Templeton used in the Mitchell Library on the basis of the case Bavin-Mizzi made in her book.

[cobalt]

Hi Barn,

I thought we could definitely place McInnes at the Barrowland on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. Did he not admit this to the police when interviewed?

If I'm right then this is much more significant than the claim that Templeton might have attended the Barrowland at some point, time unknown. McInnes would also have been one of three men possibly carrying Moylan advertising cards on the night in question.

[Ms Diddles]

I haven't access to Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book so can only sum up my thoughts based on what I have read on this site. Both Ms Diddles and Barn have been very helpful in that regard.

1. If JBM can't place Templeton in the Barrowland Ballroom then she is putting all her eggs in the DNA basket. It's not enough to say that he met his wife in a dance hall: half of the married men in Glasgow could have said that back in the 1960s. Without a previous friend or work colleague to confirm that Templeton was an occasional patron of the Barrowland then her case is seriously weakened.

2. Jeannie was insistent that BJ was slightly old fashioned for the time in terms of his hair and overall appearance. The photo on this site of Templeton, from I think 1967, shows a man very much 'with it' in terms of his hair styling and modest sideburns. (Peter Tobin has a similar look in one of his contemporary photos.) In the following period when the murders took place, hair and sideburns generally became longer and, being guided by Templeton's snazzy appearance as described by Barn, I can't see him not following the trend. This would put him even further away from the staid BJ look captured in the famous portrait.

3. The former Mrs. Templeton's equanimity concerning her husband possibly being a serial killer has been commented on by others. It is decidedly strange since we would assume a wife to be either strenuously in denial she shared her bed with such a man or alternatively she might want to 'stick the knife in' as a form of posthumous revenge.

What is missing surely is an account of the wife racking her brains in terms of times and dates of the murders, wondering if it could possibly be him. As a newly married wife she would have been very observant about her husband's movements; the fastidious Templeton doesn't come across as a person likely to return from a lad's night out minus a cuff link with scratches on his face. Most newly married men didn't often go out without their wives in any case. He must have aroused some suspicion on a general level at the time, irrespective of the BJ case, if he was returning home alone in such condition. After all, Templeton wasn't working as a taxi driver or a bouncer.

Obviously it is difficult to remember exact times and dates so many years later, but a young married couple have many helpful landmarks to tie down the calendar in terms of children being born, moving house, holidays etc. In my experience whilst men can accurately date earlier events by reference to football matches and work situations, women are very strong on family matters. It's odd that the ex-Mrs. Templeton does not appear to have gone down this road.

4. If Templeton was indeed BJ, where does that leave the Moylan's furniture advertising card found at the scene of the Helen Puttock murder? Did Templeton discover it as a marker in a library book and decide to carry it on his person?

Hi Cobalt,

If you ever get the opportunity I would urge you to read JBM' s book.

That said, I've read it and been quite impressed by it, but in the main I would still concur with your points above.

Re point 3 - Jill struck me as being a smart cookie with a lot of integrity. I think it's entirely possible that there are elements of her conversation with June that she has not made public.

If there was anything definitive like June recalling her husband coming home in the early hours dishevelled with a scratched face for example, I'm sure we would know about it though.

Whatever passed between the two women during that conversation, Jill came away feeling certain that she was on the right track

I think it's possible that there were more subtle elements to the conversation which were perhaps deeply personal or too intangible to note.

It was apparent that Jill was extremely nervous before her meeting with June and almost expected her theory to go up in smoke, but actually the opposite happened.

I would have loved to be a fly on that wall!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apologies for this quick side track but I was just reminded of this point as I’ve begun to re-read Bible John: A New Suspect. It’s just an example of mixed messages and “who to believe?” On the question of the DNA comparison after the exhumation.

Anthony Busuttil, who oversaw the exhumation on behalf of the McInnes family (and the Lockerbie investigation btw) said “the person we exhumed was not the person that was being looked for in terms of the Bible John crimes.” DI Billy Little from Strathclyde police said “I can tell you that the DNA stain recovered on the clothing of Helen Puttock is not John McInnes’s.”

But…Dr Marie Cassidy, who was forensic pathologist for the Crown said “Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, the laboratory could not get a full profile and the results were described as inconclusive. The Barrowland serial killer had not been identified and remains unidentified to this day.”

Two entirely different messages. Isn’t this case difficult enough?

Apologies for the tangent.

[Ms Diddles]

Apologies for this quick side track but I was just reminded of this point as I’ve begun to re-read Bible John: A New Suspect. It’s just an example of mixed messages and “who to believe?” On the question of the DNA comparison after the exhumation.

Anthony Busuttil, who oversaw the exhumation on behalf of the McInnes family (and the Lockerbie investigation btw) said “the person we exhumed was not the person that was being looked for in terms of the Bible John crimes.” DI Billy Little from Strathclyde police said “I can tell you that the DNA stain recovered on the clothing of Helen Puttock is not John McInnes’s.”

But…Dr Marie Cassidy, who was forensic pathologist for the Crown said “Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, the laboratory could not get a full profile and the results were described as inconclusive. The Barrowland serial killer had not been identified and remains unidentified to this day.”

Two entirely different messages. Isn’t this case difficult enough?

Apologies for the tangent.

Exactly Herlock!

For me, this is the crux of the matter.

JBM has evidently opted for Busuttil / Little, but as you've just shown, there is reason to be doubtful.

Could there be a middle ground?

A full profile couldn't be obtained, but what they had was enough to eliminate McInnes???

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly Herlock!

For me, this is the crux of the matter.

JBM has evidently opted for Busuttil / Little, but as you've just shown, there is reason to be doubtful.

Could there be a middle ground?

A full profile couldn't be obtained, but what they had was enough to eliminate McInnes???

I’m unsure Ms D, but it’s difficult to see how someone like Cassidy could have misinterpreted it (or Busuttil for that matter). I just don’t know enough about DNA but it does seem a strange divergence of opinion if that’s what it is because the difference is so significant or at least potentially significant. Maybe it might have come down to opinion with Cassidy thinking that there was enough there to keep the possibility open. It’s interesting though that after receiving samples from the siblings (McInnes brother Hector and his sister Janet) the police were excited at the results. They used phrases like phrases like “a direct hit” and “a match,” so they clearly thought that they were onto a winner after being advised by the scientists. It’s a big step for a judge to allow an exhumation. Something was convincing. It’s a mystery.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My apologies to all for this long post but I’ve just finished a re-read of Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi (or JBM as I’ll now call her) and I thought I’d do a recap which would provide more info for anyone that hasn’t read the book yet and has only had access to newspaper reports and also to share my own thoughts. Again, apologies for repeating anything that you already know.


The starting point was the ‘near match’ between the DNA taken from the semen stain on Helen Puttock’s stocking and the samples donated by relatives of John Irvine McInnes (his sister Janet and his brother Hector) She asks whether, after the initial near match, the police asked for more samples from family members that matched the killers age range. Or did they not bother because they were so convinced that it was John Irvine McInnes?

When the DNA from Puttock was tested the police gave no details about those results except that they used phrases like “a direct hit” and “a match” so there was no way of determining the actual strength of the DNA relationship but as they clearly believed that they had found some shared patterns this could only have come from a ‘shared genetic inheritance.’ And a Judge doesn’t take a decision to order an exhumation lightly.

So JBM’s starting point is that if she went back through generations of McInnes ancestors she would eventually find one that the family had in common with Bible John but as Bible John’s identity is unknown that couldn’t be achieved. So she decided to start by tracing back the ancestors of JIM’s siblings and look for the name Templeton which is one of the possible names that Jeannie felt that he had used in the taxi when talking to Helen. They could then identify each branch and then trace them forward through time eventually getting to the generation which included the McInnes siblings and Bible John. These people could then be compared to what was known about Bible John. Because DNA science was in its infancy in 1996 the ‘match’ between Hector and Janet and the DNA from the stain on Puttock’s stocking was probably overstated.

JBM created a ‘Generational Ancestor Chart’ which differs from a family tree because it doesn’t use siblings; only parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc to try and reach a point of shared ancestry with Bible John. Seven or eight generations is about as far as can usually be gone due to the incompleteness of the records going back in time. Arriving at the seventh generation JBM found a Margaret Hunter who married a John Templetoune. Whatever the odds are they appear remote that the name possibly/probably given by the killer appears within this group of 63 surnames all relating to the McInnes’s family. Margaret Templeton’s father was called John. Margaret’s brothers John and James both had sons called John. And many of their other sons also passed on the name John, so that moving down the ancestry lines the number of John’s will likely increase. So if she followed the lines of descendants there would be a good chance of there being a John Templeton (definitely connected by DNA to the McInnes’s family) who fit the age, description and possibly the profile of Bible John.

(I’m not convinced about her suggestion that the killer gave his real surname because of some sense of morality about lying by the way. She could be right but i tend to favour that he might have believed that only Helen had heard him say it and that she wouldn’t live to tell anyone.)

The first one she found was John Muir Templeton’s who was 36 in 1969 which was outside Jeannie’s range of 25-30 but he was included in the ‘possibles.’ She widened the age range as the killer might have looked your or older than he actually was then used a database called Scotland’s People to search for John Templeton’s born between 1931 and 1946 inclusive. The search revealed in total 32 John Templeton’s but this search couldn’t show if they were traceable back to the marriage of Margaret Hunter to John Templetoune. The 32 were just ‘possibles.’

Next was a process of elimination. Of the 32, 2 sadly didn’t make it to adulthood to the total came down to 30. One emigrated to Canada with no evidence of his ever returning to Scotland. He was also a motor mechanic at the time of the murders and so on the grounds that Jeannie said that John’s hands were clean and uncut and his nails looked well manicured the list was further reduced to 29. JBM decided not to risk eliminating potentials on the grounds of possibly having an accent from a different part of Scotland as it’s often impossible to know if someone from x might have spent years in y which affected his accent.

Next she used physical description including Jeannie of course, the man seen with Jemima MacDonald and Night Bus Man (if we have BS man and Parcelman in the ripper case we should have at least one other nickname in this case I think?) So she next needed photographs (social media etc) plus published or oral descriptions of each of the 29 ‘possibles.’ She eliminated a John James Templeton’s but this from a photograph in Farm Ireland so that was 28. John Ferguson Templeton was a member of a bowling club and had photographs online so 27. John F Templeton was a Stirling County Cricketer then umpire. Photos of his retirement show him to have been too small…26. John Shepherd Templeton had dark brown hair so 25. John Templeton had receding hair…24. John Sim Templeton had a significant overbite and a distinct gap between his two front teeth…23. John Barrie Templeton was a sergeant in the Boy’s Brigade and had dark hair…22. John Donnachie Templeton also had dark brown hair leaving 21. John Andrew Templeton’s hair was receding 11 years before the Puttock murder. He also had big ears…20. John Brian Templeton’s died at 33 and was from Galashiels and so would have had a Borders accent. He also had dark hair..19. John Alexander Templeton had a small, round face and was described by his daughter as “my wee dad”…18. John James Templeton had dark hair..17. John Cunningham Templeton also had dark hair…leaving 16 without photographs.

Five grew up on farms but JBM sensibly wouldn’t assume that this meant manual labour (which would show on the hands) because labourers might have been employed instead. Records show some of the farms hiring such so the sons may never have worked in farming. Three certainly had though. John Dunn Templeton was still working as a farmer after his father died in 1972…15. John Drennan Templeton and John Templeton were clearly lifelong farmers which JBM felt would have shown in their hands…13.

She then moved onto the question of foster homes and Scotstoun. Jeannie mentioned John talking about foster homes or foster children when she believed that he was just trying to change the subject of the conversation but when they passed through Scotstoun he’d recognised a block of flats on Kingsway. He said something about his father or a relative of his working there and that the site was once occupied by a children’s home. From what Jeannie could recall of the Bible quote the police had felt that he was paraphrasing a passage in Exodus about a mother abandoning her infant. The Kingsway flats that he’d pointed out had used to be Scotstoun House Children’s Home which had been demolished in 1962. The admittance records were closed to the public for a hundred years. JBM’s plan was to try and determine which of the remaining 13 John Te,-Elton’s grew up with their families and which might have ended up in care.

John Muir Templeton was found to still be in contact with his father in 1965 and was married and living in the next town. He also signed his fathers death certificate so JBM eliminated him…12 (personally, I’d have been reluctant to eliminate him with just that information.) John Templeton lived in the same village as his parents until they he passed away and was buried with them…11.

Another John Muir Templeton was difficult to evaluate but there was enough evidence for continuing close family ties to eliminate him…10. John Shearer Templeton’s names passed through three generations and there was evidence of close family bonds..9. John McCloy Templeton was named after his father and grandfather which shows a continuing family link. Evidence of a close family caused him to be eliminated…8. John Kerrigan Templeton was recalled online by friends as having a close relationship with his brother and so was also eliminated…7. John Templeton’s family have posted about him online and was clearly from a close family…6. John Stewart Templeton was clearly from quite a well-to-do family who received a good education and gained a medical degree..5.

Then for 2 of the remaining 5 JBM could find very little information and none that helped the process of elimination. The final 3 however might all have spent time in care but what follows is some real complicated genealogy stuff which is a headache to a non-genealogist like me so I’ll skip it. One of the five was eliminated after a discovered photo showed dark hair…4. Lots more genealogy with inconclusive results giving Templeton’s who couldn’t be conclusively eliminated or connected. Then….

John Templeton (1945-2015) Son of a single mother named Emma Dresser Johnston. There is no evidence that she ever married the father of her child William Templeton and there’s no way via the records to trace his family back to a link with the McInnes family but he was living in an area that BJ was familiar with and when he began school at the age of 5 he was living with a foster family. Registers show that he went to nearby Bankhead School and that his guardian was a Mrs Fransman of Dumbarton Road.

One thing that Jeannie remarked on from the taxi conversations was that fact that John claimed to have been an only child but then mentioned a sister before quickly moving the conversation on. John Templeton was an only child but did have a foster-sister. Templeton’s stepfather also got an STD in the early years of his marriage this could have meant that an attitude towards adultery or even of women passing on diseases might have been passed down to John from either of his foster parents. Pure conjecture of course but at least worthy of a mention I think.

Templeton served an apprenticeship to become a compositor or typesetter but Jeannie recalled John saying that he worked in a laboratory but JBM found film footage of compositors in white lab coats using microscopes and chemical baths so, in the processing stage at least, compositors could have been said to have worked, at least in part, in a laboratory. But, let’s face it, ego and the desire to impress might have led to a bit of exaggeration.

In the taxi Jeannie recalled some talk about the cost of public transport with John exhibiting some knowledge of the cost of transport north of the Clyde. Templeton had lived in the Scotstoun/ Knightsbridge areas since before that age of 5 until his early twenties. It’s also shown that he continued to live in Dumbarton Road until around a fortnight before Jemima MacDonald’s murder, when he’d got married and moved, which meant that his knowledge of local transport would have been up-to-date.

Another interesting point concerns Night Bus Man who was seen getting off the number 6 night bus at Gray Street. An assumption has been made that he was heading for the ferry and so might have lived south of the Clyde but JBM makes the point that this stop involved backtracking to the ferry which he could have avoided by getting off a stop or two earlier. She also points out, validly, that the ferrymen didn’t recall seeing anyone of that description. Surely they would have spotted such a dishevelled figure with a scratched face in the early hours - how many passengers would they have had at that time after all? At the time of Helen Puttock’s murder John Templeton was living in a rental apartment at Melrose Gardens, North Kelvinside with his wife. ‘John’ had alighted the bus at the closest possible stop to Templeton’s address leaving him just a 25 minute walk home. Templeton had met his wife June at the Majestic Ballroom. He didn’t smoke and very rarely drank.

(From a personal point of view it has to be asked…why didn’t June notice his scratched face on the night of the Puttock murder? It was in the early hours though and could he have left for work then claimed to have scratched himself at work. Or might he simply have told her he’d scratched his face on the way home..maybe a fall and such a trivial thing hadn’t registered over time with his wife? Why would it have?)

The police actually came to Templeton’s house to question him on the grounds of his name (as mentioned by Jeannie) and his connection to Scotstoun (Jeannie again) but why did this take them 6 months. They had the name and the Scotstoun mention immediately after the murder so why did detectives take 6 months to find a ‘John Templeton’ in Glasgow? Perhaps they had originally dismissed the suggestion that he’d given his real name and then, as they became more desperate, they were more willing to look into it?

The photograph of Templeton looks extremely close to the Patterson painting in my opinion (and JBM’s of course) But there were three issues. The photograph has the hair parted on the opposite side. Also the missing tooth, present in portrait and photograph were on opposite sides of his mouth. There was also talk of very slightly overlapping from upper-middle teeth. It’s impossible from the photo to detect this in Templeton but a dentist did say that one looked slightly wide than the other which might have given a slight overlap..but again it was on the wrong side. Three out of three on the wrong side. JBM wondered if the photo had been printed in reverse from the negative (which no longer exists) She asked June to picture John in front of her and asked what side he parted his hair on. Instead of the right to left in the photo she said that it was left to right. So…hair parted on the correct side, missing tooth on the correct side (and in exactly the location place btw) and tooth that might have slightly overlapped, on the correct side.


To sum up JBM’s case against:


Bible John used the name John Templeton

The name exists within the ancestors of McInnes’s siblings

He fits the age profile

Born and raised in Glasgow..so correct accent

The police suspected that BJ was a foster child and Templeton’s definitely was one

His foster family lived within walking distance of Scotstoun House Children’s Home which John identified during the taxi ride

Had one sibling, a sister, as Bible John had implied

Didn’t smoke and drank very little

Very polite

He was living in Scotstoun when the new transport schedules and fair prices were came out. Bible John was familiar with these

The apartment that he moved into with his wife was a short walk from the stop where Night Bus Man alighted.

The photograph was a close match to the Patterson portrait.

……

It might appear a huge coincidence that the guy that the Police were initially interested in (John Irvine McInnes) was connected by DNA to the actual killer but coincidences do happen. The one big question for me (and I suspect others) is about the Moylan’s card that put the police onto McInnes in the first place. It wouldn’t have had his name on so could Helen have just got hold of a Moylan’s card from somewhere and when the company was contacted by the police their description of him fitted McInnes? Maybe the two salesman had actually seen him at Barrowland that night? Maybe McInnes had been to Barrowland previously and had tried to chat Helen up and he’d given her the card?

But if we consider the above coincidence then we have to consider the other. What are the chances of someone tracking through the ancestral links, finding a Templetoune and then 32 John Templeton’s descending from him? She then eliminates them one by one and the one she is left with just happens to look almost exactly like the Patterson portrait. And not only that there are the other points listed above which match. And we have found, from info given on here, that he wasn’t liked at work by female colleagues. The word ‘misogynist’ was even mentioned.


Could Jill Bavin-Mizzi have discovered Bible John?


I won’t nail any colours to any masts yet but yes, I think that she could have.

[cobalt]

JBM probably deserves to have solved the case as reward for her genealogical exhaustive work. I found the step-sister/Children's Home detail a strong point in her theory, that and the historic and contemporary knowledge Templeton had with the area of the final crime. The exaggeration of a printer claiming to work in a laboratory sounds reasonable to me as well.

But based on the very thorough synopsis by HS I would highlight a few problems. John Templeton was one variant on what Jeannie remembered hearing. He could have been John Sempleson, John Templeman or John Sandison, even John Emerson or John Tillitson. He might even just have been joking that he, John, was a 'Gentleman John' and been misheard by Jeannie. The name is a very narrow seam to follow but I wouldn't know what the odds are of turning up a Templeton/McInnes match over 7 generations in central Scotland.

Why the police focused on a ferry crossing for the man on the late night bus remains a mystery to us, but I wouldn't describe a 25 minute walk to Templeton's house as a 'short walk home.' It sounds like a couple of miles with a fair chance of some random late night citizen spotting him. Maybe the police missed a trick here. Or perhaps the suspicious character just lived nearer the bus stop.

The case for a reversed photograph from the original (missing) negative seems a touch desperate. In a later photo taken when Templeton was working at the Mitchell Library his by now white hair is parted to the left, same as in the 1967 print.

One library employee (in a tabloid) mentioned that Templeton had a slight speech impediment- something like a glottal stop I think- but Jeannie made no reference to this. Maybe Barn can wrack his brains and help out here.

If I read HS correctly, Templeton was married two weeks before the murder of Jemima McDonald? Or at least he was newly married and moved house at that time? Either way it reads as an unlikely type of honeymoon/house warming celebration. (Although Sutcliffe showed us such actions are not unheard of however.)

And finally the fly in the ointment: Moylan's Furniture card. Admittedly there is no proof that the card belonged to the killer but logic suggests it did. There would have been little reason for either McInnes or his two work colleagues to be dishing out their cards to patrons inside the Barrowland since their shop was around 12 miles away. This was at a time when car ownership was lower and out of town shopping had not been developed. Their target area would have been the surrounding towns of Wishaw, Airdrie, Coatbridge and Motherwell, not central Glasgow. Which tends to rule out John Templeton acquiring such a card, supposing he was ever inside the Barrowland in his life.

The killer can't really have given Helen Puttock a card if he later claimed to be working in a laboratory. Even if he did and she put it in her handbag, you think he would have noticed it when her bag presumably burst open in the struggle. Most likely the card fell from his clothing during his murderous assault and that points far more to John McInnes than John Templeton.

[Ms Diddles]

My apologies to all for this long post but I’ve just finished a re-read of Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi (or JBM as I’ll now call her) and I thought I’d do a recap which would provide more info for anyone that hasn’t read the book yet and has only had access to newspaper reports and also to share my own thoughts. Again, apologies for repeating anything that you already know.


The starting point was the ‘near match’ between the DNA taken from the semen stain on Helen Puttock’s stocking and the samples donated by relatives of John Irvine McInnes (his sister Janet and his brother Hector) She asks whether, after the initial near match, the police asked for more samples from family members that matched the killers age range. Or did they not bother because they were so convinced that it was John Irvine McInnes?

When the DNA from Puttock was tested the police gave no details about those results except that they used phrases like “a direct hit” and “a match” so there was no way of determining the actual strength of the DNA relationship but as they clearly believed that they had found some shared patterns this could only have come from a ‘shared genetic inheritance.’ And a Judge doesn’t take a decision to order an exhumation lightly.

So JBM’s starting point is that if she went back through generations of McInnes ancestors she would eventually find one that the family had in common with Bible John but as Bible John’s identity is unknown that couldn’t be achieved. So she decided to start by tracing back the ancestors of JIM’s siblings and look for the name Templeton which is one of the possible names that Jeannie felt that he had used in the taxi when talking to Helen. They could then identify each branch and then trace them forward through time eventually getting to the generation which included the McInnes siblings and Bible John. These people could then be compared to what was known about Bible John. Because DNA science was in its infancy in 1996 the ‘match’ between Hector and Janet and the DNA from the stain on Puttock’s stocking was probably overstated.

JBM created a ‘Generational Ancestor Chart’ which differs from a family tree because it doesn’t use siblings; only parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc to try and reach a point of shared ancestry with Bible John. Seven or eight generations is about as far as can usually be gone due to the incompleteness of the records going back in time. Arriving at the seventh generation JBM found a Margaret Hunter who married a John Templetoune. Whatever the odds are they appear remote that the name possibly/probably given by the killer appears within this group of 63 surnames all relating to the McInnes’s family. Margaret Templeton’s father was called John. Margaret’s brothers John and James both had sons called John. And many of their other sons also passed on the name John, so that moving down the ancestry lines the number of John’s will likely increase. So if she followed the lines of descendants there would be a good chance of there being a John Templeton (definitely connected by DNA to the McInnes’s family) who fit the age, description and possibly the profile of Bible John.

(I’m not convinced about her suggestion that the killer gave his real surname because of some sense of morality about lying by the way. She could be right but i tend to favour that he might have believed that only Helen had heard him say it and that she wouldn’t live to tell anyone.)

The first one she found was John Muir Templeton’s who was 36 in 1969 which was outside Jeannie’s range of 25-30 but he was included in the ‘possibles.’ She widened the age range as the killer might have looked your or older than he actually was then used a database called Scotland’s People to search for John Templeton’s born between 1931 and 1946 inclusive. The search revealed in total 32 John Templeton’s but this search couldn’t show if they were traceable back to the marriage of Margaret Hunter to John Templetoune. The 32 were just ‘possibles.’

Next was a process of elimination. Of the 32, 2 sadly didn’t make it to adulthood to the total came down to 30. One emigrated to Canada with no evidence of his ever returning to Scotland. He was also a motor mechanic at the time of the murders and so on the grounds that Jeannie said that John’s hands were clean and uncut and his nails looked well manicured the list was further reduced to 29. JBM decided not to risk eliminating potentials on the grounds of possibly having an accent from a different part of Scotland as it’s often impossible to know if someone from x might have spent years in y which affected his accent.

Next she used physical description including Jeannie of course, the man seen with Jemima MacDonald and Night Bus Man (if we have BS man and Parcelman in the ripper case we should have at least one other nickname in this case I think?) So she next needed photographs (social media etc) plus published or oral descriptions of each of the 29 ‘possibles.’ She eliminated a John James Templeton’s but this from a photograph in Farm Ireland so that was 28. John Ferguson Templeton was a member of a bowling club and had photographs online so 27. John F Templeton was a Stirling County Cricketer then umpire. Photos of his retirement show him to have been too small…26. John Shepherd Templeton had dark brown hair so 25. John Templeton had receding hair…24. John Sim Templeton had a significant overbite and a distinct gap between his two front teeth…23. John Barrie Templeton was a sergeant in the Boy’s Brigade and had dark hair…22. John Donnachie Templeton also had dark brown hair leaving 21. John Andrew Templeton’s hair was receding 11 years before the Puttock murder. He also had big ears…20. John Brian Templeton’s died at 33 and was from Galashiels and so would have had a Borders accent. He also had dark hair..19. John Alexander Templeton had a small, round face and was described by his daughter as “my wee dad”…18. John James Templeton had dark hair..17. John Cunningham Templeton also had dark hair…leaving 16 without photographs.

Five grew up on farms but JBM sensibly wouldn’t assume that this meant manual labour (which would show on the hands) because labourers might have been employed instead. Records show some of the farms hiring such so the sons may never have worked in farming. Three certainly had though. John Dunn Templeton was still working as a farmer after his father died in 1972…15. John Drennan Templeton and John Templeton were clearly lifelong farmers which JBM felt would have shown in their hands…13.

She then moved onto the question of foster homes and Scotstoun. Jeannie mentioned John talking about foster homes or foster children when she believed that he was just trying to change the subject of the conversation but when they passed through Scotstoun he’d recognised a block of flats on Kingsway. He said something about his father or a relative of his working there and that the site was once occupied by a children’s home. From what Jeannie could recall of the Bible quote the police had felt that he was paraphrasing a passage in Exodus about a mother abandoning her infant. The Kingsway flats that he’d pointed out had used to be Scotstoun House Children’s Home which had been demolished in 1962. The admittance records were closed to the public for a hundred years. JBM’s plan was to try and determine which of the remaining 13 John Te,-Elton’s grew up with their families and which might have ended up in care.

John Muir Templeton was found to still be in contact with his father in 1965 and was married and living in the next town. He also signed his fathers death certificate so JBM eliminated him…12 (personally, I’d have been reluctant to eliminate him with just that information.) John Templeton lived in the same village as his parents until they he passed away and was buried with them…11.

Another John Muir Templeton was difficult to evaluate but there was enough evidence for continuing close family ties to eliminate him…10. John Shearer Templeton’s names passed through three generations and there was evidence of close family bonds..9. John McCloy Templeton was named after his father and grandfather which shows a continuing family link. Evidence of a close family caused him to be eliminated…8. John Kerrigan Templeton was recalled online by friends as having a close relationship with his brother and so was also eliminated…7. John Templeton’s family have posted about him online and was clearly from a close family…6. John Stewart Templeton was clearly from quite a well-to-do family who received a good education and gained a medical degree..5.

Then for 2 of the remaining 5 JBM could find very little information and none that helped the process of elimination. The final 3 however might all have spent time in care but what follows is some real complicated genealogy stuff which is a headache to a non-genealogist like me so I’ll skip it. One of the five was eliminated after a discovered photo showed dark hair…4. Lots more genealogy with inconclusive results giving Templeton’s who couldn’t be conclusively eliminated or connected. Then….

John Templeton (1945-2015) Son of a single mother named Emma Dresser Johnston. There is no evidence that she ever married the father of her child William Templeton and there’s no way via the records to trace his family back to a link with the McInnes family but he was living in an area that BJ was familiar with and when he began school at the age of 5 he was living with a foster family. Registers show that he went to nearby Bankhead School and that his guardian was a Mrs Fransman of Dumbarton Road.

One thing that Jeannie remarked on from the taxi conversations was that fact that John claimed to have been an only child but then mentioned a sister before quickly moving the conversation on. John Templeton was an only child but did have a foster-sister. Templeton’s stepfather also got an STD in the early years of his marriage this could have meant that an attitude towards adultery or even of women passing on diseases might have been passed down to John from either of his foster parents. Pure conjecture of course but at least worthy of a mention I think.

Templeton served an apprenticeship to become a compositor or typesetter but Jeannie recalled John saying that he worked in a laboratory but JBM found film footage of compositors in white lab coats using microscopes and chemical baths so, in the processing stage at least, compositors could have been said to have worked, at least in part, in a laboratory. But, let’s face it, ego and the desire to impress might have led to a bit of exaggeration.

In the taxi Jeannie recalled some talk about the cost of public transport with John exhibiting some knowledge of the cost of transport north of the Clyde. Templeton had lived in the Scotstoun/ Knightsbridge areas since before that age of 5 until his early twenties. It’s also shown that he continued to live in Dumbarton Road until around a fortnight before Jemima MacDonald’s murder, when he’d got married and moved, which meant that his knowledge of local transport would have been up-to-date.

Another interesting point concerns Night Bus Man who was seen getting off the number 6 night bus at Gray Street. An assumption has been made that he was heading for the ferry and so might have lived south of the Clyde but JBM makes the point that this stop involved backtracking to the ferry which he could have avoided by getting off a stop or two earlier. She also points out, validly, that the ferrymen didn’t recall seeing anyone of that description. Surely they would have spotted such a dishevelled figure with a scratched face in the early hours - how many passengers would they have had at that time after all? At the time of Helen Puttock’s murder John Templeton was living in a rental apartment at Melrose Gardens, North Kelvinside with his wife. ‘John’ had alighted the bus at the closest possible stop to Templeton’s address leaving him just a 25 minute walk home. Templeton had met his wife June at the Majestic Ballroom. He didn’t smoke and very rarely drank.

(From a personal point of view it has to be asked…why didn’t June notice his scratched face on the night of the Puttock murder? It was in the early hours though and could he have left for work then claimed to have scratched himself at work. Or might he simply have told her he’d scratched his face on the way home..maybe a fall and such a trivial thing hadn’t registered over time with his wife? Why would it have?)

The police actually came to Templeton’s house to question him on the grounds of his name (as mentioned by Jeannie) and his connection to Scotstoun (Jeannie again) but why did this take them 6 months. They had the name and the Scotstoun mention immediately after the murder so why did detectives take 6 months to find a ‘John Templeton’ in Glasgow? Perhaps they had originally dismissed the suggestion that he’d given his real name and then, as they became more desperate, they were more willing to look into it?

The photograph of Templeton looks extremely close to the Patterson painting in my opinion (and JBM’s of course) But there were three issues. The photograph has the hair parted on the opposite side. Also the missing tooth, present in portrait and photograph were on opposite sides of his mouth. There was also talk of very slightly overlapping from upper-middle teeth. It’s impossible from the photo to detect this in Templeton but a dentist did say that one looked slightly wide than the other which might have given a slight overlap..but again it was on the wrong side. Three out of three on the wrong side. JBM wondered if the photo had been printed in reverse from the negative (which no longer exists) She asked June to picture John in front of her and asked what side he parted his hair on. Instead of the right to left in the photo she said that it was left to right. So…hair parted on the correct side, missing tooth on the correct side (and in exactly the location place btw) and tooth that might have slightly overlapped, on the correct side.


To sum up JBM’s case against:


Bible John used the name John Templeton

The name exists within the ancestors of McInnes’s siblings

He fits the age profile

Born and raised in Glasgow..so correct accent

The police suspected that BJ was a foster child and Templeton’s definitely was one

His foster family lived within walking distance of Scotstoun House Children’s Home which John identified during the taxi ride

Had one sibling, a sister, as Bible John had implied

Didn’t smoke and drank very little

Very polite

He was living in Scotstoun when the new transport schedules and fair prices were came out. Bible John was familiar with these

The apartment that he moved into with his wife was a short walk from the stop where Night Bus Man alighted.

The photograph was a close match to the Patterson portrait.

……

It might appear a huge coincidence that the guy that the Police were initially interested in (John Irvine McInnes) was connected by DNA to the actual killer but coincidences do happen. The one big question for me (and I suspect others) is about the Moylan’s card that put the police onto McInnes in the first place. It wouldn’t have had his name on so could Helen have just got hold of a Moylan’s card from somewhere and when the company was contacted by the police their description of him fitted McInnes? Maybe the two salesman had actually seen him at Barrowland that night? Maybe McInnes had been to Barrowland previously and had tried to chat Helen up and he’d given her the card?

But if we consider the above coincidence then we have to consider the other. What are the chances of someone tracking through the ancestral links, finding a Templetoune and then 32 John Templeton’s descending from him? She then eliminates them one by one and the one she is left with just happens to look almost exactly like the Patterson portrait. And not only that there are the other points listed above which match. And we have found, from info given on here, that he wasn’t liked at work by female colleagues. The word ‘misogynist’ was even mentioned.


Could Jill Bavin-Mizzi have discovered Bible John?


I won’t nail any colours to any masts yet but yes, I think that she could have.

Hi Herlock,

That's a great synopsis of the book.

Thanks for taking the time to post it.

I also struggle with the notion that BJ gave his real name in the taxi as he had a compulsion not to lie.

I agree it's more likely that he just thought Jeannie hadn't heard him (or else the wildcard- he was not intending to murder Helen at that point).

[Ms Diddles]

JBM probably deserves to have solved the case as reward for her genealogical exhaustive work. I found the step-sister/Children's Home detail a strong point in her theory, that and the historic and contemporary knowledge Templeton had with the area of the final crime. The exaggeration of a printer claiming to work in a laboratory sounds reasonable to me as well.

I agree!

Managing to link her suspect to the foster home via the nearby primary school must have been quite a stab in the dark.

I think JBM was quite surprised when it paid off.


But based on the very thorough synopsis by HS I would highlight a few problems. John Templeton was one variant on what Jeannie remembered hearing. He could have been John Sempleson, John Templeman or John Sandison, even John Emerson or John Tillitson. He might even just have been joking that he, John, was a 'Gentleman John' and been misheard by Jeannie. The name is a very narrow seam to follow but I wouldn't know what the odds are of turning up a Templeton/McInnes match over 7 generations in central Scotland.

I don't personally recall the Templeman, Sandison or Tillitson variations, but I guess the point remains that Jeannie was uncertain of what she'd actually heard.

Why the police focused on a ferry crossing for the man on the late night bus remains a mystery to us, but I wouldn't describe a 25 minute walk to Templeton's house as a 'short walk home.' It sounds like a couple of miles with a fair chance of some random late night citizen spotting him. Maybe the police missed a trick here. Or perhaps the suspicious character just lived nearer the bus stop.

I did the walk from the bus stop to Templeton's flat and it took me 25 minutes.

I was faffing about taking pictures, chatting and watching squirrels etc though.

A young, fit guy going directly could do it in 15 -20 mins (probably closer to the 15 min mark).

It's around a mile.

90% of the walk is through Kelvingrove Park which would be dark at night.

Only the last couple of minutes are outside the park on quiet residential tenemented streets.

Objectively (and regardless of whether I'm backing Templeton as a suspect) I know this area well and always felt that the bus stop indicated that a cut through Kelvingrove Park was just as likely as a trip on the ferry to the southside.


The case for a reversed photograph from the original (missing) negative seems a touch desperate. In a later photo taken when Templeton was working at the Mitchell Library his by now white hair is parted to the left, same as in the 1967 print.

Agree!

One library employee (in a tabloid) mentioned that Templeton had a slight speech impediment- something like a glottal stop I think- but Jeannie made no reference to this. Maybe Barn can wrack his brains and help out here.

Over to Barn!

If I read HS correctly, Templeton was married two weeks before the murder of Jemima McDonald? Or at least he was newly married and moved house at that time? Either way it reads as an unlikely type of honeymoon/house warming celebration. (Although Sutcliffe showed us such actions are not unheard of however.)

And finally the fly in the ointment: Moylan's Furniture card. Admittedly there is no proof that the card belonged to the killer but logic suggests it did. There would have been little reason for either McInnes or his two work colleagues to be dishing out their cards to patrons inside the Barrowland since their shop was around 12 miles away. This was at a time when car ownership was lower and out of town shopping had not been developed. Their target area would have been the surrounding towns of Wishaw, Airdrie, Coatbridge and Motherwell, not central Glasgow. Which tends to rule out John Templeton acquiring such a card, supposing he was ever inside the Barrowland in his life.

Yes, the Moylan's card definitely points to McInnes.

It would be a crazy coincidence if the killer was proved to be Templeton, but coincidences can happen of course.


The killer can't really have given Helen Puttock a card if he later claimed to be working in a laboratory. Even if he did and she put it in her handbag, you think he would have noticed it when her bag presumably burst open in the struggle. Most likely the card fell from his clothing during his murderous assault and that points far more to John McInnes than John Templeton.

Either option seems possible to me, but again I agree that this points to McInnes.

[New Waterloo]

Hello all. Excellent summary from Herlock and comments from others. Cobalt makes a very valid point about the card. When people lie some tend to tell half truths. Its a technique or maybe subconscious that sort of validates what they are saying so I have read.

If we consider McInnes was the man in the taxi he says his name is John. A straightforward sounding name and not in dispute. He then gives the name Templeton or something similar.

If he is in the moment searching for a surname then why would he pick Templeton.

There may be a connection. Moylands was a furniture shop. Templetons was a well known carpet maker. If Moylands sold carpets the name would be very familiar to staff at the store including McInnes. He is tense, in the taxi knowing what may soon take place. Probably speaking a lot to calm his nerves.

Even if Moyland didn't sell carpets with McInnes being in the furniture business the name Templetons would be hanging in the back of his brain.

His says his name is John Templeton to divert suspicion away from himself.

I am very swayed by the new book (which I havn't read but Herlock has made me think) but the card at the murder scene does carry some weight

NW