Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Maz,

Welcome aboard!

I couldn't find an email address for Jill Bavin-Mizzi however you could email her publisher on info@europebooks.co.uk and request that they pass your email on.

Perhaps someone else will have a direct email though.

When looking online for her contact details, I discovered that JBM is doing a talk about her book at Airdrie Library on Thursday 26th June.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/12Cwg4YTtp3/

Unfortunately all the tickets appear to be gone for this free event, but I've added myself to the waiting list incase any more become available.

Hi Ms D.

That might actually be how Barn emailed her (via her publisher) Lets hope that you can get to that talk. It’s a pity that you didn’t hear about it earlier.


Btw..my brother went to see The Flaming Lips on Friday and said that they were brilliant (sadly, I couldn’t make it)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

Hi Max,

Welcome to Casebook and specifically to the Bible John thread.

I don’t recall saying that the genealogical charts were an unnecessary inclusion only that they were a bit of a mystery to a non-genealogist like myself. There are plenty of genealogists on this forum though.

Ive just sent an email to poster barnflatwyngarde who, if I recall correctly, had previously been in email contact with Jill Bavin-Mizza. I’m sure that he’ll log in soon.

[Ms Diddles]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

Hi Maz,

Welcome aboard!

I couldn't find an email address for Jill Bavin-Mizzi however you could email her publisher on info@europebooks.co.uk and request that they pass your email on.

Perhaps someone else will have a direct email though.

When looking online for her contact details, I discovered that JBM is doing a talk about her book at Airdrie Library on Thursday 26th June.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/12Cwg4YTtp3/

Unfortunately all the tickets appear to be gone for this free event, but I've added myself to the waiting list incase any more become available.

[Maz]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

[Herlock Sholmes]

In 1996 they checked George Puttock’s DNA and dental impressions and cleared him of any involvement in her murder. He appears to have been a violent man though and according to some not averse to knocking Helen around.

[New Waterloo]

Was Mr Puttock checking what the taxi driver saw to reassure himself that he wasnt seen/involved

NW

[New Waterloo]

Interesting information from Cobalt, not sure if it can be verified. But if true could be seen as very significant.

'Helen Puttock's husband claimed that in later years he tracked down the taxi driver and Hannah confirmed his account, adding that after paying the fare BJ went over to Helen and there was sign of a disagreement. But nothing more than that'.

If this did occur it somewhat lessens the chance of Helen Puttocks husband being the murderer (It has been suggested by some that he may have been after disturbing Helen with the man in the taxi, the man known as Bible John)

Surely even years later the taxi driver would have recognized him as BJ and Puttock would surely not have gone to see the taxi driver risking him being recognized.

Also interesting that the taxi driver Hannah suggests a disagreement had started between BJ and Helen.

Hope you all get what I am saying.

Cobalt has given some important info.


OR MR Puttock is making this up to firm up his defence and adding the disagreement between BJ and Helen.

where does the info about Mr Puttock meeting the taxi driver come from?

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

There has been been some good discourse about the case on this thread.
I'm happy about that, it seems to me that honest debate over name calling and protecting entrenched views wins every time.

Couldn’t agree more Barn

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have managed to get myself a copy of "Power in the Blood" by Douglas Simpson.

On page 162 he says:
"The conductor and the passenger witnessed an odd thing: when he was approached for his fare he had produced the money to pay for his ticket from a red purse. And Helen Puttock's red purse was missing!"

No source is given for this information.

If this information is accurate, it is very strange behaviour from a man who had just killed his third victim.

How did you manage to get a copy so quickly Barn? I’ve been looking at the price comparison site that I use, 3-2-1, and I still can’t find a copy for sale (ditto Samson and Crow, ditto Stoddart)

I’m guessing that you’re thinking the same thing as me Barn - this does sound like one of those rumours/legends that pop up in every case? There’s no reason why it can’t have been true though. Frustrating.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I have managed to get myself a copy of "Power in the Blood" by Douglas Simpson.

On page 162 he says:
"The conductor and the passenger witnessed an odd thing: when he was approached for his fare he had produced the money to pay for his ticket from a red purse. And Helen Puttock's red purse was missing!"

No source is given for this information.

If this information is accurate, it is very strange behaviour from a man who had just killed his third victim.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I should be close to finishing the book tonight with a bit of luck. A question for you (or anyone) Barn. Helen Puttock went out with a red purse that night. On page 44 the author says that the disheveled man on the number 6 bus paid his fair from a red purse. This is hugely significant of course but I hadn’t seen it written anywhere else. I used the search function on the books that I have and found no mention of this. I can’t recall if it might have been mentioned on the podcast but I’d have thought that such an important fact would have stuck in my memory? Is it familiar to you..or anyone else?

Hi Herlock.

Re the red purse mentioned by Bavin-Mizzi in her new book.

On page 175 of "Dancing With the Devil" by Paul Harrison he says that Douglas Simpson in his book "Power in the Blood: Whatever Happened to Bible John" mentions the dishevelled man on the number six bus paying his fare with money from a red purse.

So the earliest reference to the red purse seems to be via Douglas Simpson.
I don't have a copy of Simpson's book so I'm not sure if he mentions a source for this information.

There has been been some good discourse about the case on this thread.
I'm happy about that, it seems to me that honest debate over name calling and protecting entrenched views wins every time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a post on McInnes that I put on the other thread.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/social-chat/other-mysteries/800518-another-piece-of-evidence-linking-john-mcinnes-to-the-bible-john-murders?p=838887#post838887

[rjpalmer]

rj,

The taxi driver's name is mentioned somewhere on these sites- I recall his surname was Hannah. He had only been working the taxis for a couple of months and one of the women became rather annoyed he was not taking the best route. His recollection of the time and place he dropped the group seems to tally with Jeannie Langford's statement and the police narrative.

Gillan identified the taxi driver as Alexander Hannah. But that's just it---that she he had to "identify" someone who should have been a key witness struck me as odd. For some reason, he had been marginalized.

[cobalt]

rj,

The taxi driver's name is mentioned somewhere on these sites- I recall his surname was Hannah. He had only been working the taxis for a couple of months and one of the women became rather annoyed he was not taking the best route. His recollection of the time and place he dropped the group seems to tally with Jeannie Langford's statement and the police narrative.

Helen Puttock's husband claimed that in later years he tracked down the taxi driver and Hannah confirmed his account, adding that after paying the fare BJ went over to Helen and there was sign of a disagreement. But nothing more than that.

I think the 1996 Cold Case detectives showed a photo of John McInnes to the taxi driver (there was page of 12 similar faces) and he immediately picked out McInnes as the passenger- albeit that was after about 25 years. However Jeannie Langford did not identify McInnes from the photo, merely remarking he looked similar. What we don't seem to know is whether both the taxi driver and Jeannie were given the opportunity to ID McInnes in a line up. Most commentators think Hannah, the taxi driver, was NOT asked to do this which seems very odd.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HS,

Thanks for your cogent replies.

The DNA link seems no more than conjecture. As for teeth missing, often Scots in the 1960s had teeth extracted before the age of 40 to save further dental costs as my parents did. Scots have possibly the worst teeth in the entire world: when I visited a dentist in China she looked in my mouth and gasped in disbelief. A missing tooth was, and probably still is, commonplace amongst otherwise healthy Scots.

I would take issue with the idea of The Majestic and the Barrowland being interchangeable as places to go and meet up with women. Patricia Docker seemed aware of this distinction and rather like pubs, there are certain ones we frequent and others to be avoided. We know that McInnes did go there (he reportedly admitted being there the night of the Puttock murder) and we even know that Tobin did as well. But not Templeton. So if the author can't place Templeton inside the Barrowland on the basis of friends or relatives confirming that he went there, then her argument seems thin.

I appreciate the limitations the author was working under - no access to police records and witnesses dying off - so her focus on DNA as a magic bullet will have to be scrutinised by those more versed in that area than me.

Templeton being nicknamed 'Bible John' was information supplied on this very site by Barn, who knew Templeton at least by sight and also some library staff who worked alongside him. So it is pretty reliable, I think.

I’d forgotten that Templeton being nicknamed Bible John came from Barn although I don’t know how I managed to forget it and I certainly accept that there was a difference between the Majestic and the Barrowland in that the Majestic was seen as a more respectable establishment. I also accept your point about the missing tooth Cobalt but I’d still put it as a plus point. Jeannie was quite specific about the location of a single missing tooth and so to find that Templeton had the same tooth missing is interesting although not a slam dunk.