Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[cobalt]

OneRound's thoughts on BJ are very much in line with my own and I will elaborate on some of the points he raised.

* Belated and weak attempt to trace Castlemilk John

Castlemilk is often thought of as a Glasgow housing scheme but at the time it had a population of almost 40,000, as big as most Scottish towns, so finding one man might not have been a simple matter. Nevertheless we can assume he gave his correct location, first name and occupation- a slater- since he had no reason to lie about these things. That should have narrowed the search considerably once we take his age profile into account. Plus a description from Jeannie. It was a serious weakness in the investigation. Although CJ was clearly reluctant to come forward he would, if contacted, surely have proved a valuable witness.
His reluctance to come forward may have been social embarrassment in respect of his private life but there are other possibilities. Perhaps he had experienced bad dealings with the police previously and had heard of friends being 'fitted up.' Perhaps BJ had remarked on having a relative in the Glasgow Police Force. It's odd that CJ has retained his silence for over 50 years if still alive.

* Cursory forensics of the taxi and apparently limited follow up with the taxi driver.

Quite a euphemistic description. The fact the the taxi driver did not attend the ID parade of McInnes because he was retracing the taxi route with McInnes' uncle is highly suspicious.

* Limited use of other potential witnesses, particularly the bouncers and other staff at the Barrowland

Absolutely. Bouncers are sober and their job is to remember faces and be alert for troublemakers, which BJ was in respect of the cigarette machine. And what about the other dancers? BJ must have had some fleeting, casual interactions with other patrons: he surely did not enter the Barrowland and pick out a dance partner/victim immediately. Could a similarly built policeman resembling BJ and wearing the same clothing not have been found to stand in the foyer the following week to help jog memories?

* The Moylans business card - its finding should have been clearly confirmed or denied and, if found, forensically tested

The Moylan's card should have been the Rosetta stone of the investigation. A furniture firm 12 miles from the murder scene and with presumably no connection to the residences where Helen Puttock's body was discovered points to it being dislodged during the struggle. If it came from Helen's clothing or handbag it may be a red herring since we don't know how she obtained it, but more likely it was given to her by her attacker earlier or fell from his clothing. That narrows it down to about three men we know of. (There is the remote possibility it was a 'throw down' to mislead the police, I suppose.)

* Notwithstanding Beattie operating in ''the here and now'', total absence of records explaining why John Irvine McInnes was investigated and what went on with him.

Highly suspicious. If he was innocent and cleared by police why hide the records?

BTW OneRound I checked up on the Calvinistic financier Sir John Templeton whose attitude to making loads of money was described as being, 'It's fine so long as you don't enjoy it.' Maybe a bit like BJ's attitude to sex. Sir John lived pretty frugally apparently and adopted a financial system later developed and named after one James Tobin. No relation I am sure.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi folks

Last year I said that I would look into this intriguing, frustrating and deeply sad case and try to comment but life kept getting in the way. Apologies for that.

Anyway, although I haven't (yet) read this new book, I thought that and this newish thread was a fair place to start off. I have at least listened twice to the excellent Audrey Gillan podcast, been through all the posts on this forum and dabbled with a few writings and recordings from various sources on the net.

My first thought was that you guys were being pretty harsh in your criticism of Joe Beattie. He was after all trying to catch the killer in what was then ''the here and now'' and not pave the way for our discussions more than fifty years later. However, that thought soon rapidly diluted when picking up on some of the investigation's glaring mistakes and omissions. These include but certainly aren't limited to:

* Belated and weak attempt to trace Castlemilk John;
* Cursory forensics of the taxi and apparently limited follow up with the taxi driver;
* Limited use of other potential witnesses, particularly the bouncers and other staff at the Barrowland;
* The Moylans business card - its finding should have been clearly confirmed or denied and, if found, forensically tested;
* Notwithstanding Beattie operating in ''the here and now'', total absence of records explaining why John Irvine McInnes was investigated and what went on with him.

With all those issues and more in the mix, I salute Jill Bavin-Mizzi in undertaking what is viewed as very thorough research and trying to now identify Bible John. However, I have massive difficulty in believing it was John Templeton - or any Templeton. I cannot accept that someone who had already killed twice and was perhaps contemplating a third victim would volunteer his real name. There seems to be a suggestion that his religious upbringing would prevent him telling a lie. I just can't buy that. As well as killing these women, he had sexually assaulted them and stolen their clothes, money and other possessions. To my mind, a lie is nothing to blink an eye at in all that.

Also, and as flagged recently by Herlock, there is no certainty whatsoever that the killer even said his name was ''Templeton''. A related and further frustration is that reports vary as to whether Jean Langford was pretty sober or half-sozzled.

I would mention that there was a billionaire philanthropist alive at this time, Sir John Templeton (1912 - 2008) who was an active member of the Presbyterian Church and founder of religious trusts and spiritual foundations. Wiki provides details if anyone is interested. There's not the remotest suggestion he was involved - he became a British citizen but was born in the USA and spent much of his life in the Bahamas. However, if Jean did hear and recall the name ''Templeton'' correctly, I wonder if Bible John had seen a tv programme or read an article highlighting this individual and, perhaps being impressed, decided to use his name. Admittedly, pure speculation.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,
OneRound

Hi OneRound,

It’s certainly an intriguing and baffling case. I think that the Bavin-Mizzi book is excellent and that John Templeton has to be considered a valid suspect but I agree with you in coming back to that same point - why would he have given his own name to be heard by a woman (Jean) who he had no intention of silencing. I’m wondering though if it’s possible that, as he was talking directly to Helen, he might have felt that he’d said it quiet enough for Jean not to have heard it? Maybe if Jean had had ‘a few’ and might have been jabbering on that he felt that she wouldn’t have been paying too close attention? I don’t know.

We know that the taxi driver picked McInnes from a photograph as the ‘John’ in the taxi but if McInnes and Templeton resembled each other…?

[OneRound]

Hi folks

Last year I said that I would look into this intriguing, frustrating and deeply sad case and try to comment but life kept getting in the way. Apologies for that.

Anyway, although I haven't (yet) read this new book, I thought that and this newish thread was a fair place to start off. I have at least listened twice to the excellent Audrey Gillan podcast, been through all the posts on this forum and dabbled with a few writings and recordings from various sources on the net.

My first thought was that you guys were being pretty harsh in your criticism of Joe Beattie. He was after all trying to catch the killer in what was then ''the here and now'' and not pave the way for our discussions more than fifty years later. However, that thought soon rapidly diluted when picking up on some of the investigation's glaring mistakes and omissions. These include but certainly aren't limited to:

* Belated and weak attempt to trace Castlemilk John;
* Cursory forensics of the taxi and apparently limited follow up with the taxi driver;
* Limited use of other potential witnesses, particularly the bouncers and other staff at the Barrowland;
* The Moylans business card - its finding should have been clearly confirmed or denied and, if found, forensically tested;
* Notwithstanding Beattie operating in ''the here and now'', total absence of records explaining why John Irvine McInnes was investigated and what went on with him.

With all those issues and more in the mix, I salute Jill Bavin-Mizzi in undertaking what is viewed as very thorough research and trying to now identify Bible John. However, I have massive difficulty in believing it was John Templeton - or any Templeton. I cannot accept that someone who had already killed twice and was perhaps contemplating a third victim would volunteer his real name. There seems to be a suggestion that his religious upbringing would prevent him telling a lie. I just can't buy that. As well as killing these women, he had sexually assaulted them and stolen their clothes, money and other possessions. To my mind, a lie is nothing to blink an eye at in all that.

Also, and as flagged recently by Herlock, there is no certainty whatsoever that the killer even said his name was ''Templeton''. A related and further frustration is that reports vary as to whether Jean Langford was pretty sober or half-sozzled.

I would mention that there was a billionaire philanthropist alive at this time, Sir John Templeton (1912 - 2008) who was an active member of the Presbyterian Church and founder of religious trusts and spiritual foundations. Wiki provides details if anyone is interested. There's not the remotest suggestion he was involved - he became a British citizen but was born in the USA and spent much of his life in the Bahamas. However, if Jean did hear and recall the name ''Templeton'' correctly, I wonder if Bible John had seen a tv programme or read an article highlighting this individual and, perhaps being impressed, decided to use his name. Admittedly, pure speculation.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Maz]

Hi Maz,
Welcome to the boards.
I hope that you have time to take a wander through the various postings on the "Bible John" thread, there is a lot of, to my mind, interesting stuff there, and some thoughtful considerations of various aspects of the case.

Jill Bavin-Mizzi's email address is jill.bavinmizzi@bigpond.com.

All the best!

Many thanks, I'm still trying to work out how to use this site effectively!! I will definitely read all the posts.
cheers and thanks again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

amazing band

I’d have loved to have seen them Abby. One day hopefully.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barn!

I'll give it a go.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I'm not really sure how knowledgeable I am on this case.

I have a memory like a sieve, so everything I had learned while listening to the podcast and reading the literature on the subject has pretty much gone.

I would definitely require a reread / refresher!

Ms D, I have a friend who works in Airdrie Library.
I have contacted her re the possibility of getting you a ticket.

I'll let you know the outcome.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Ms D.

That might actually be how Barn emailed her (via her publisher) Lets hope that you can get to that talk. It’s a pity that you didn’t hear about it earlier.


Btw..my brother went to see The Flaming Lips on Friday and said that they were brilliant (sadly, I couldn’t make it)

amazing band

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D, It is interesting that Jill is giving talks on her book.

I am sure that there will be lots of interesting questions and feedback from the audience, although I think that the input you could make to the talk would be very valuable.

Perhaps if you contact Jill personally ( jill.bavinmizzi@bigpond ) explaining your interest in the case she could get you into the event.
I am sure that she would welcome your knowledgeable input.

If you do manage to get to the talk, perhaps you could post your thoughts on this thread.

All the best.

Thanks Barn!

I'll give it a go.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I'm not really sure how knowledgeable I am on this case.

I have a memory like a sieve, so everything I had learned while listening to the podcast and reading the literature on the subject has pretty much gone.

I would definitely require a reread / refresher!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Maz,

Welcome aboard!

I couldn't find an email address for Jill Bavin-Mizzi however you could email her publisher on info@europebooks.co.uk and request that they pass your email on.

Perhaps someone else will have a direct email though.

When looking online for her contact details, I discovered that JBM is doing a talk about her book at Airdrie Library on Thursday 26th June.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/12Cwg4YTtp3/

Unfortunately all the tickets appear to be gone for this free event, but I've added myself to the waiting list incase any more become available.

Hi Ms D, It is interesting that Jill is giving talks on her book.

I am sure that there will be lots of interesting questions and feedback from the audience, although I think that the input you could make to the talk would be very valuable.

Perhaps if you contact Jill personally ( jill.bavinmizzi@bigpond ) explaining your interest in the case she could get you into the event.
I am sure that she would welcome your knowledgeable input.

If you do manage to get to the talk, perhaps you could post your thoughts on this thread.

All the best.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

Hi Maz,
Welcome to the boards.
I hope that you have time to take a wander through the various postings on the "Bible John" thread, there is a lot of, to my mind, interesting stuff there, and some thoughtful considerations of various aspects of the case.

Jill Bavin-Mizzi's email address is jill.bavinmizzi@bigpond.com.

All the best!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah, it's annoying that I found out about this talk too late.

It's probably a long-shot that there will be any cancellations, but you never know!

Maybe barnflatwyngarde with his library expertise will have spotted this before I did?

Glad your brother had a great time at The Flaming Lips.

It's a shame that you missed it, but they tour fairly regularly so you may manage to catch them next time.

I’m a bit of a latecomer to The Flaming Lips but this was the second time that my brother had seen them twice.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D.

That might actually be how Barn emailed her (via her publisher) Lets hope that you can get to that talk. It’s a pity that you didn’t hear about it earlier.


Btw..my brother went to see The Flaming Lips on Friday and said that they were brilliant (sadly, I couldn’t make it)

Yeah, it's annoying that I found out about this talk too late.

It's probably a long-shot that there will be any cancellations, but you never know!

Maybe barnflatwyngarde with his library expertise will have spotted this before I did?

Glad your brother had a great time at The Flaming Lips.

It's a shame that you missed it, but they tour fairly regularly so you may manage to catch them next time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Maz,

Welcome aboard!

I couldn't find an email address for Jill Bavin-Mizzi however you could email her publisher on info@europebooks.co.uk and request that they pass your email on.

Perhaps someone else will have a direct email though.

When looking online for her contact details, I discovered that JBM is doing a talk about her book at Airdrie Library on Thursday 26th June.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/12Cwg4YTtp3/

Unfortunately all the tickets appear to be gone for this free event, but I've added myself to the waiting list incase any more become available.

Hi Ms D.

That might actually be how Barn emailed her (via her publisher) Lets hope that you can get to that talk. It’s a pity that you didn’t hear about it earlier.


Btw..my brother went to see The Flaming Lips on Friday and said that they were brilliant (sadly, I couldn’t make it)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

Hi Max,

Welcome to Casebook and specifically to the Bible John thread.

I don’t recall saying that the genealogical charts were an unnecessary inclusion only that they were a bit of a mystery to a non-genealogist like myself. There are plenty of genealogists on this forum though.

Ive just sent an email to poster barnflatwyngarde who, if I recall correctly, had previously been in email contact with Jill Bavin-Mizza. I’m sure that he’ll log in soon.

[Ms Diddles]

I'm a new poster, so bear with me! I lived in Glasgow in 1968 and 1969, and Pat Docker was a colleague of my mother. They were both nurses on the same shift at Mearnskirk Hospital. A close friend lived in Lyndhurst Gardens, the next street along off Wilton Street from Melrose Gardens. I think Jill's research on John Templeton is very compelling. Like Jill, I am also a historian and a genealogist, and I disagree with you completey about the genealogical charts and information being an unnecessary inclusion in the book. The genealogical lines are there for people like me to explore further data as it emerges and also proves the point that there are Templeton connections in the McInnes family tree. I would like to write to Jill Bavin-Mizza, can any of you help me with her email address??

Hi Maz,

Welcome aboard!

I couldn't find an email address for Jill Bavin-Mizzi however you could email her publisher on info@europebooks.co.uk and request that they pass your email on.

Perhaps someone else will have a direct email though.

When looking online for her contact details, I discovered that JBM is doing a talk about her book at Airdrie Library on Thursday 26th June.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/12Cwg4YTtp3/

Unfortunately all the tickets appear to be gone for this free event, but I've added myself to the waiting list incase any more become available.