Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Abby Normal]

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

well he didnt neccessarily have to be a regular. maybe several, like three or four , visits there over the years with maybe a couple visits to a different club.

of course this brings up the question. when did he stop going to the clubs and why did he stop killing?

[Ms Diddles]

i would say bj was rather successful at picking up women from the ball room but was set off by the women who he picked up who were menstruating, whether because it blocked him from going all the way or another deep seated psychological reason. i think he had a few successful pickups before and during the murders where he was with women that werent menstruating that went ok, or at least not with murder. these were definitely murders of rage and violence, unlike the ripper. more akin to rape murderers aka control killers with a definite deep seated/subconscious problem (hatred) with women.

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

[New Waterloo]

Great comments being made.

Again will have to check but in the Podcast I think Jeannie (actor) says that when she saw the picture of McInnes he looked more like Castlemilk John, her man than he did BJ. This seems a very odd but very significant statement if I have got it right.

Very odd I think

NW

[Abby Normal]

i would say bj was rather successful at picking up women from the ball room but was set off by the women who he picked up who were menstruating, whether because it blocked him from going all the way or another deep seated psychological reason. i think he had a few successful pickups before and during the murders where he was with women that werent menstruating that went ok, or at least not with murder. these were definitely murders of rage and violence, unlike the ripper. more akin to rape murderers aka control killers with a definite deep seated/subconscious problem (hatred) with women.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barnflat for the photo. Excellent thank you. Gives a real sense of the place.

I suppose I am not explaining myself too well trying to make sense of what Jeannie says in the bonus episode of the Podcast. Whilst discussing what she describes as the only ID parade (with several men to chose from) she comments that one of them fits the description more than the others and talks about how colour of hair looks different went seen in the light.
Its a bit of a strange comment because its sort of comparing seeing a person in darkness or in the light.

I think my conclusion is that she is drawn towards this man in the line up but cant quite make the ID and perhaps attributes this to the lighting environment. It is not a positive identification but far from a negative either considering she thought he would be the person who was being exhumed.

The identity of this man would be most useful but I don't think we know who this is do we?

NW

Hi NW, to my knowledge we do not know the name of this individual who Jeannie thought was a good likeness for Bible John.
You make a good point re the fact that Jeannie commented on the lighting conditions.
The Barrowland had a large rotating glitter ball that was probably throwing out some varied and interesting light patterns throughout the evening.

Some men were such a good likeness of the artist's impression that they were hauled in by police several times and subsequently were given official cards by the police that clearly stated that they were not BJ, and were not to be hauled in by police officers.

I am sure that I have a newspaper article where it say says that Jeannie saw over 1,000 men in an effort to identify the killer, although the actual circumstances of these "line ups" are unclear.
Were they formal ID parades, or merely Jeannie being asked if one individual looked like the killer?
I would imagine that all "formal" ID parades would still be listed in the police files,
It would be interesting to have a look at these records.

[New Waterloo]

Hi NW, on Thursday nights the Barrowland was for ballroom dancing.
The jive and early disco dancing was for Friday and Saturday night.

The lights would be quite low on weekends, but on a Thursday night the lights would be quite bright.

I attach a photo of the Barrowlands in the 60's which shows this.

Thanks Barnflat for the photo. Excellent thank you. Gives a real sense of the place.

I suppose I am not explaining myself too well trying to make sense of what Jeannie says in the bonus episode of the Podcast. Whilst discussing what she describes as the only ID parade (with several men to chose from) she comments that one of them fits the description more than the others and talks about how colour of hair looks different went seen in the light.
Its a bit of a strange comment because its sort of comparing seeing a person in darkness or in the light.

I think my conclusion is that she is drawn towards this man in the line up but cant quite make the ID and perhaps attributes this to the lighting environment. It is not a positive identification but far from a negative either considering she thought he would be the person who was being exhumed.

The identity of this man would be most useful but I don't think we know who this is do we?

NW

[cobalt]

The car theory answers a fair few problems associated with the case. There is no taxi/bus evidence to show how Pat Docker made her way (almost) home. A car also provides a means for the killer to remove the majority of her clothing from the scene and dump some of it over the nearest bridge as he drove from the scene. The body was found on a steep incline where a car could have freewheeled down without the engine on, thus attracting little attention. And of course it would be safer to strip a body after death inside a vehicle then dump it, rather than sweat around in public to do the same.

But the available evidence points to Pat Docker being murdered at the scene. Her facial and head injuries indicate a fair degree of leverage, something difficult to inflict inside a car. Her shoes and a few other items were found near the scene, so why would a driver chuck out some and not the lot? Before chucking a few more items into the nearby river from a bridge then heading back home with a few selected trophies? Parking on a bridge to throw items into the river sounds a good way to be remembered by passing motorists in the early hours of the morning.

I suspect the police ballsed up the crime scene big time, failing to find blood spray or the like. Strangulation normally results in urine/faecal deposit. If they could not determine whether Pat Docker died at the scene or not they were probably seriously incompetent. Police divers did manage to retrieve a few items from the river, including the handbag interestingly which was not found in the other murders. (So much for the trophy theory.) But I suspect the clothes were dumped in the river as well and were simply not retrieved.

Why was Pat Docker stripped? Presumably as part of some notion that women should be exposed for what they are? I'll hand over the rest of that to FBI profilers, psychobabblers and frauds like David Wilson.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One thing that constantly bugs me about this case….why was Patricia Docker naked? I keep getting the same niggling suggestion that the killer might have had a car at the time. Again, I would express anything like certainty though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the taxi fare problem may have come from a miscalculation on BJ's part. After all it was hardly in his interests to welch on the arrangement once Helen reached her destination.

Most passengers like Jeannie and Helen know the cost of a direct taxi home and I assume BJ would have had been able to estimate the fare direct to his home as well. However in my experience customers often underestimate how fast the meter will start to rack up once you start dropping individuals off at different locations, especially when a bit of back tracking takes place. It's not the first time I've seen the last 'drop off' rooting about to cover the fare, despite friends having contributed what seemed a fair amount when they got off. I think that is what happened here and that BJ was forced to ask Helen to chip in to help cover the fare which, due to his circuitous route, he had underestimated.

I think you’re more than likely right there Cobalt. If he was trying to impress (as he appeared to be) suddenly declaring that you have no money isn’t going to help. More likely an error on his part and he needed a bit of cash from Helen to make up the shortfall; which probably wouldn’t have impressed her. Maybe she told him what she thought about him on no uncertain terms.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve wondered if it could have been as simple as John picked up women regularly and saw them as little more than prostitutes - but not actually prostitutes. But the ones that refused him sex (due to their periods) he saw as rejecting him. This kind of attitude - “I’m better than these **** so they should be grateful for my attention…how dare they refuse me?” So they had to be punished. I think that some kind of twisted religiosity came into it to. Maybe.

[cobalt]

I think the taxi fare problem may have come from a miscalculation on BJ's part. After all it was hardly in his interests to welch on the arrangement once Helen reached her destination.

Most passengers like Jeannie and Helen know the cost of a direct taxi home and I assume BJ would have had been able to estimate the fare direct to his home as well. However in my experience customers often underestimate how fast the meter will start to rack up once you start dropping individuals off at different locations, especially when a bit of back tracking takes place. It's not the first time I've seen the last 'drop off' rooting about to cover the fare, despite friends having contributed what seemed a fair amount when they got off. I think that is what happened here and that BJ was forced to ask Helen to chip in to help cover the fare which, due to his circuitous route, he had underestimated.

The problem I have with this is the implication that women in the late sixties were very amenable to casual sex with strangers on a one night stand.
I am not sure that I buy that scenario.

I think that is my position as well, for all that I floated the opposing point of view yesterday. Younger writers often impose a concept of female liberation on to what they believe were the 'swinging sixties' whereas those of us around at the time know that there was precious little of that available in most of our lives. To take one example, women in full time work could still be denied Hire Purchase agreements on the basis that they were women and therefore a bad risk. They needed a father or husband to sign as a guarantor.

Was the killer of the view that it was full sex or nothing?
I just do not know!

It rather looks that way despite the obvious problems of being outdoors, in the Docker case during a frosty February night. BJ was no rapist leaping from the shadows upon a solitary woman on her way home, so it seems he was anticipating consensual sexual activity. Yet he must have known that even a woman willing to engage with him would at the very least have expected some degree of comfort- like a place to lie down- and some privacy. None of that was on offer in a row of garages or a tenement back court. The abandoned tenement where Jemima MacDonald was killed barely meets these basic needs either. So irrespective of the women all menstruating at the time and presumably declining sexual activity with BJ, it's hard to imagine they could have been seduced given the highly unromantic locations.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Apologies I am jumping around a bit but spotting more stuff on my third listen to the Podcast. In the Bonus episode, Jeannie (actress) clearly says there was only one ID parade. She clearly means a parade of several individuals and not just looking at a particular individual as she explains earlier. She states that it was in Partick and that she 'went up to this guy and just welled up' (tears were forming) she said 'He's the only one that fits the description' she then goes on to say that she thought that he would be the one that they 'dug up' (the exhumation) she seems surprised that he was eliminated and goes on to say that in the dark it was different to seeing him in the light.

I think she means in the ID parade or she must mean Barrowlands but I have been in a few nightclubs/Discos in the past and to be honest I wouldn't describe them as being light places. Perhaps that why its not seen as a positive ID. What I am saying is that the man fitted the description but the light in the ID room makes him look a little different. Is that what she is saying. Its a bit confusing

The important question is who was this man who she saw on the ID parade? Clearly Jeannie thought that his was the body being exhumed so she must have thought he was a strong possible. Cant recall if its addressed in the Podcast but must be some police documentation maybe.

Just an idea

NW

Hi NW, on Thursday nights the Barrowland was for ballroom dancing.
The jive and early disco dancing was for Friday and Saturday night.

The lights would be quite low on weekends, but on a Thursday night the lights would be quite bright.

I attach a photo of the Barrowlands in the 60's which shows this.

[New Waterloo]

Apologies I am jumping around a bit but spotting more stuff on my third listen to the Podcast. In the Bonus episode, Jeannie (actress) clearly says there was only one ID parade. She clearly means a parade of several individuals and not just looking at a particular individual as she explains earlier. She states that it was in Partick and that she 'went up to this guy and just welled up' (tears were forming) she said 'He's the only one that fits the description' she then goes on to say that she thought that he would be the one that they 'dug up' (the exhumation) she seems surprised that he was eliminated and goes on to say that in the dark it was different to seeing him in the light.

I think she means in the ID parade or she must mean Barrowlands but I have been in a few nightclubs/Discos in the past and to be honest I wouldn't describe them as being light places. Perhaps that why its not seen as a positive ID. What I am saying is that the man fitted the description but the light in the ID room makes him look a little different. Is that what she is saying. Its a bit confusing

The important question is who was this man who she saw on the ID parade? Clearly Jeannie thought that his was the body being exhumed so she must have thought he was a strong possible. Cant recall if its addressed in the Podcast but must be some police documentation maybe.

Just an idea

NW

[Darryl Kenyon]

Bible John may have been polite and said he would drop Helen off before himself, and he would pay for the taxi. Said taxi pulls up near [ i believe ] and not outside Helen's home, [ she doesn't want her husband to see another man in the cab ]. Bible John then uses the ruse that he has lost his wallet, thus Helen pays . He doesn't want her to pay anymore money than she already has so refuses any more cash for the rest of the fare [ if offered ] , and says he will get out with Helen and walk the rest of the way home [ another ruse ]. Perhaps Helen got annoyed at his , perceived lack of money and that was the cause of the words outside the cab. He may have used this ruse regularly, [ especially if he said he lived a distance away ], hoping, under false pretences and their good nature that the lady would invite him in for a coffee and the couch for the night and he can catch the bus home in the morning. " You can't walk all that distance in this weather " . When he finds out that Helen has a partner [ off the top my head I can't remember if the other girls were living with other partners or not ] , or just gets flat out refused , that's when his rage overtakes [ maybe chasing them ], and the poor girls get murdered.

Just a thought Darryl

[barnflatwyngarde]

I asked in a previous post who exactly who BJ thought he was. I'm now going to venture into territory I find uncomfortable but it may help shed some light.

I have always assumed that BJ's attacks were a response to being thwarted from sexual activity by women who were menstruating at the the time. There is some of sort of crude logic to support that theory from a male perspective. But what if the opposite was the case? That BJ's murderous rage was sparked by women prepared to have sex with him while they were still menstruating?

The Jemima MacDonald case is the strongest support for this. She, but not BJ, knew about the abandoned tenement a few blocks from her own apartment. She was quite relaxed in his company and even waved to a neighbour while speaking to him. She might not have wanted him in her flat but it's hard to think a big raw boned woman like her could have been easily forced into an abandoned tenement against her will. She may have gone there willingly.

The Helen Puttock case is more problematic. She had a husband waiting at home and she had directed the taxi to her address. It' s hard to see that BJ's chat up lines would have persuaded her to abandon all morality. Yet Ms Diddles has suggested she may have been open to some romantic overtures after BJ's taxi route became clear to Helen and her sister. It's hard to argue against the hard reality of that. So despite the taxi driver's evidence of a dispute, was Helen open to some sort of carnal activity a few doors down from her flat, activity that sparked the fury of BJ when he discovered she was menstruating?

I haven't wished to be prurient and hope I have not offended anyone, especially the family of the victims. I still think a key element is not the medical situation of the women but the fact they were all murdered so close to, but not inside, their homes. In serial killing this might be unique.

Hi cobalt, I think that you are probably right that the killer, was certainly angling for some form of sexual contact with all three women.

None of the women were raped, and any sexual element seems to have been limited to the removal of their sanitary towels, and in the case of Patricia Docker a tampon.
It is notable that Helen Puttock's bra was used to strangle her.

Logically it might appear that the killer's fury was triggered by the fact that as all three women were menstruating they were not willing to engage in intercourse.
But this would seem to imply that the killer had been in this situation before, and hade engaged in sexual intercourse with other women.
The problem I have with this is the implication that women in the late sixties were very amenable to casual sex with strangers on a one night stand.
I am not sure that I buy that scenario.

Was the killer of the view that it was full sex or nothing?
I just do not know!

The many complexities of this case are confusing and astonishing in equal measure.

But I think that we are all asking the right questions.