Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[cobalt]

The money McInnes is alleged to have 'borrowed' (presumably in the mid 1960s) would be worth about £25,000 today, so a not inconsiderable sum. He couldn't have gambled that much away by playing dominoes badly in the local pub. Are there no tales of him being a regular at the bookmakers? Blokes who gamble every day are in my experience always checking the racing results during working hours and if they are regulars can phone in bets since they have a credit account. Odd no one has remarked on this gambling habit in relation to McInnes, or that he boasted of some recent win when chatting in the taxi.

It seems that McInnes booked himself into a psychiatric unit on two separate occasions- once in Ayr and once in Lanarkshire- after being exposed as a fraudster. Or maybe there was only one occasion and the story is confused.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's interesting stuff Herlock.

Strangely enough I am waiting for my copy of Samson and Crow's book to arrive.

I wonder if Audrey Gillan is fleshing out the gaps in John McInnes's life.

The village that McInnes lived in is Newarthill.
These weird Scottish names, plus the weird and wonderful Glasgow dialect must be doing your nut in.

I hadn’t noticed that I’d spelled it differently Barn. I don’t know if I can get away with blaming auto-correct?

It’s certainly strange how we get the variations. Hartwood and Ailsa for example. Baffling. Rumour and assumption must play a part I’m guessing .

[barnflatwyngarde]

How to get to the truth with such conflicting information?


According to Samson and Crow:

When John and Ella get married John is assistant manager in a furniture store.

He and his wife then ran the old people’s home in Ayr which was apparently called Innesfield.

He then borrowed £1000 from Ella’s cousin Helen MacMillan but never paid it back. Helen believed that he’d gambled it away.

He then went to work at the Carrick Furniture firm in Ayr.

He then book himself into Ailsa Psychiatric Institution in Ayr whilst he was facing embezzlement charges.

At some point McInnes lived in the village of Newrathill in Lanarkshire.

Villagers in Stonehouse speak of McInnes attempting suicide 3 or 4 times.

That's interesting stuff Herlock.

Strangely enough I am waiting for my copy of Samson and Crow's book to arrive.

I wonder if Audrey Gillan is fleshing out the gaps in John McInnes's life.

The village that McInnes lived in is Newarthill.
These weird Scottish names, plus the weird and wonderful Glasgow dialect must be doing your nut in.

[Herlock Sholmes]

How to get to the truth with such conflicting information?


According to Samson and Crow:

When John and Ella get married John is assistant manager in a furniture store.

He and his wife then ran the old people’s home in Ayr which was apparently called Innesfield.

He then borrowed £1000 from Ella’s cousin Helen MacMillan but never paid it back. Helen believed that he’d gambled it away.

He then went to work at the Carrick Furniture firm in Ayr.

He then book himself into Ailsa Psychiatric Institution in Ayr whilst he was facing embezzlement charges.

At some point McInnes lived in the village of Newrathill in Lanarkshire.

Villagers in Stonehouse speak of McInnes attempting suicide 3 or 4 times.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This quote was found by Roger Palmer:


“We are often victims of coincidence. But I’ve heard no stranger tale than the situation a colleague found himself in last week. Mr. John Porter, former editor of the Scottish Catholic Observer, is now the Editor-in Chief of 40 weekly newspapers in Lincolnshire. Last Monday Mr. Porter was visited by detectives investigating “the Bible John murder."

TEETH OUT

Said Mr. Porter: “They wanted to know if I’d had two teeth extracted at Glasgow Medical school not long after Mrs. Puttock was murdered. I confirmed that I had.” Suddenly Mr. Porter realized that not only was his name John, but that he had been editor of a religious newspaper in Glasgow.

“I was horrified,” he told me. “Even though I had nothing on my conscience.”

A spokesman for Glasgow’s Marine Division police told me: “The man we are hunting for has a front tooth overlapping the other.”

“We have checked with every Glasgow dentist on about one thousand patients, trying to find a clue which would lead us to Bible John’s true identity.”

Mr. Porter has merely been the victim of a coincidence—however bizarre his story might be.”


--Sunday Mail (Glasgow) 29 November 1970

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just noticed this..on the subject of teeth.

Audrey Gillan: “At the time of Helen Puttock's murder, John Irvine McInnes had his own teeth, but three years later, he did not. So, what they were hoping to do when they dug up the body, and they were devastated to learn that there was no top teeth, so that was actually what they were doing it for, I think.”

I knew that I’d seen some mention of the top teeth being missing but I couldn’t recall where.

[Herlock Sholmes]

After reading about the strange goings-on with the cops and suspect McInnes, reading his dental records seem to have gone missing strikes me as more strangeness. Yet more cover-up? Or merely a weird coincidence?

Hi Pat,

I’m unsure about the state of record keeping in the 1960’s dental industry but it was pre-computer of course and the police spoke to a large number of businesses with no luck. I can’t see how they could have missed McInnes’s dentist (whichever one it was) so I can only assume that by the time that the police looked McInnes dentist was gone, along with the records.

[Pcdunn]

From Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

“Meanwhile, Donald McDonald, Professor of Oral Pathology at Glasgow University, was asked to compare John McInnes’s teeth with the bite mark found on Helen Puttock’s wrist (preserved as it was in a plaster mould). Professor McDonald concluded that, “while Mr McInnes’s teeth might have made the marks, because of the limited detail it was not possible to make a valid judgement about probability.”262 This “limited detail” stemmed from the fact that John McInnes had been fitted with dentures some three years after Helen Puttock’s murder and so there were simply no teeth to compare.263 His dental records have not as yet been found.”

As for the info on McInnes being fitted with dentures three years after the Puttock murder she cites Audrey Gillan from her introduction to the podcast as the source of this info. We don’t know where this information comes from but I think that we can safely assume that AG got it from a solid source. I can’t be certain but it looks like the authorities either weren’t aware of his dentures before the exhumation or, if they had been told about them, then they weren’t sure of the extent of them because they clearly had hopes of a match up with the bite mark.

After reading about the strange goings-on with the cops and suspect McInnes, reading his dental records seem to have gone missing strikes me as more strangeness. Yet more cover-up? Or merely a weird coincidence?

[cobalt]

Picking up on New Waterloo's thoughts on BJ and armpits. We're probably in Freudian territory here but the method of suicide and the placing of the sanitary towel on Helen Puttock does seem more than coincidence.

It may explain another puzzle as to why BJ restricted his murders to women who were menstruating. Armpits are traps for human odour and it's sometimes possible to notice when a woman is on her period due to a stronger scent from her sweat. Helen Puttock was wearing a sleeveless dress when she went out dancing at the Barrowfield I think. I am assuming that BJ's views on women were very much taken from Leviticus and that he thought they should be indoors at such times, not out dancing.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock for the info. I was unaware of most of it. He certainly was a complex character with a somewhat muddled life it seems. If he was BJ then the way in which he avoided detection was probably though his outrages up front demeanour. Just being there, not hiding, not moving away, just fronting it out with bravado. Possible I suppose. The reality was I suppose that he was and is a great suspect but not really any strong evidence. Even Jeannie the star witness doesn't really get us any closer.

I suppose even if he kept going to the Barrowland through all of that period and after he creates his own defence. He just says yes I go there often. So what. Unless he was seen entering the taxi with Jeannie and Helen it means nothing.

He would be no more of a suspect than the two other employees from Moylans at the Barrowland that night or anybody else there that night.

The question I think you have raised before (and others I guess) is McInnes was suspected in the first place and very soon after Helens murder. That information could well be an important key.

NW

[cobalt]

It's always helpful to have some local colour outwith police reports and tabloid speculation. However Herlock is right to warn us about the accuracy of these local observations. I'm sure they were all gathered after John McInnes was named as a suspect and of course a good while after his suicide became part of local knowledge. 'I always thought he was a bit of a weirdo' is a stock response in these circumstances.

A couple of things stand out to me from what was offered. Firstly, if McInnes was missing his evening sales meetings at the stamp trading firm to attend the Barrowland then he was clearly unperturbed at being recognised from earlier days. Visiting his old stamping ground (no pun intended) seems bizarre behaviour if he was indeed Bible John.

And since McInnes was allegedly hauled in to 4 ID parades (no police station mentioned) and was whispered to be Bible John locally, then weeding him from the police files could not have anything to do with avoiding family embarrassment. We probably all assumed initially that his relative was responsible for this act of censorship but it seems that something other than embarrassment was the motivation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a few things gathered from various books NW. Apologies if you are already aware of them.



A man called William Sloan, who slept in the next bed to McInnes in the army, said that he was a heavy drinker and a ‘sharp operator’ with a devious streak. He also thought him cold and cunning. Apparently he once stayed out all night drinking and the rest of the platoon chipped in to help him avoid a reprimand. McInnes showed no gratitude and went out again the next night.

After he left the Army he drank in The Old Ship Inn, either alone or with his brother Hector. There was a lot of low-level gambling on games of domino’s and McInnes was considered a bit of a fantasist who told tall stories. He was also prone to bursts of scripture.

He and his wife opened an old people’s home and there was ‘talk’ of him jumping into bed with residents to comfort them. Apparently one of his wife’s cousins confirmed this.

He borrowed £1000 from a young female relative but never paid it back.

He took a job with a furniture store but defrauded them out of some money. This led to him checking in to Heartland Psychiatric Hospital. In one book it was suggested that he might have agreed to this to avoid prison?

A cousin recalled his strange stare and increasing unexplained absences.

One local said that he became a figure of fun locally pub regulars used to wait for him to arrive so that they could win money from him.

He got a new job with a stamp trading firm and was considered odd by his new colleagues and he apparently quoted the Bible. He occasionally missed Thursday evening sales meetings to attend the Barrowland.

According to Garcia (with no source given) he was brought into the police station 4 times after the murder of Helen Puttock but he’d never been picked out.

His behaviour became more erratic and some locals took to calling him Bible John. One villager apparently ran into McInnes after his third visit to the station and he gave him all of the details of what had gone on.

In Samson and Crow’s book they talk of a woman who had known McInnes since childhood. He turned up at her door some time in December of 1969. He came inside and was distracted and talkative and the woman was frightened so she left the house. She returned 2 hours later to find him standing ‘frozen’ on the same spot until she got a neighbour to throw him out.

———————

Lots of rumour here of course and stuff without sources given so I’m certainly not claiming anything by the above. Was he a damaged man who for some deep-seated reason or just a bit of a weirdo? We can add of course that the police clearly saw him as more with those four senior officers trooping over to Stonehouse.

[New Waterloo]

The newspaper article link provided by Darryl is most interesting. Its a Daily Mail article whose source is a book by someone called Samson I think.
Anyway it certainly reinforces many things about McInnes which makes him an ideal suspect. As for evidence well not sure from the short article but I havnt seen any strong evidence at all to suggest McInnes was BJ really. Couple of interesting bits however. It seems to confirm he was a smart dresser, drove a green Ford Cortina, actively spoke of him being a suspect to others at the time.
The article suggests that his suicide involved cutting an artery under his arm pit. Suicide is a terrible thing and something experienced many years ago in my own family and I am reluctant to mention it. However I mention it because it is published in the newspaper and because at least one of BJs victims had a sanitary towel placed under her armpit which seems unusual to me and cutting an artery under an armpit and the method of suicide also seems unusual. (Perhaps it not) Probably a coincidence but of note I think.
NW

[cobalt]

I think it has been claimed on this site that the Castlemilk John photofit was only ever distributed to police stations: it was never made public. Since CJ was not an actual suspect this was probably the correct legal procedure and one I would accept should apply, despite modern attempts to expose everyone to public scrutiny.

The evidence for police weeding the files is a grey area. Everything tells us this happened but the sources for this information appear to be the McInnes family and Joe Beattie's memoirs. Is there anything beyond that?

[New Waterloo]

With regard to why a car full of senior detectives dashed out to see John McInnes in darkest Lanarkshire, I confess that I simply don't have a clue.

Whether it was a case of blatant nepotism, Freemasonic influence or the protecting of a police informant, once again, I simply don't know.

I have a concern however re the possibility of McInnes being a police informer.
McInnes lived and worked in Lanarkshire, which had it's own police force, so I think it unlikely that he would be in the position to pass on information re crimes committed in Glasgow.
He could have been an informant for Lanarkshire Police, but if that was the case, why would senior Glasgow detectives feel the need to protect him?

The teeth issue is a real knotty problem, and again, I'm simply not sure, although I lean towards McInnes having dentures.

Having said that, the following Scotsman article of 24th June 1996 by Alan Forbes, gives pause for thought on two issues; the ID parade(s) that McInnes may have been in, and the teeth issue.

The article is headed "Anger at Report That Exhumed Body is Not Bible John".

"The detective who led the original Bible John investigation, Joe Beattie said that McInnes had not been identified by ten witnesses and Miss Puttock's sister who had shared a taxi with the man believed to be Bible John.

Mr Beattie who retired about 20 years ago, said he could not comment on the current investigation and he knew nothing about DNA, but he said "If you have ten witnesses and they all say no, what do you do, haul the guy up?"
Mr Beattie added that McInnes's teeth had borne no similarity to the description of Bible John's teeth given by Miss Puttock's sister."

This is unequivocal, Beattie is clearly saying that ten witnesses saw John McInnes in ID parades, and all said that he was not the suspect that they had seen.

Presumably this evidence re the ID parades and the teeth would be in the official case files, so why on earth would the police seek permission from the Procurator Fiscal to exhume John McInnes when Beattie is clearly saying that on the evidence that he and his original investigation team he was clearly not the killer?

If Beattie is lying about the ten witnesses and the fact that McInnes's teeth were not a match, why would he lie?

Hi Barnflat. I think the same and you that it is very unlikely that McInnes was a Police Informant however I know from personal experience that when police want to observe say a pub or club for relatively minor offending (stealing from tills, after hours drinking) people are often given some beer money to see what is happening. This is because undercover officers are not interested(too minor) and local informants not reliable (to close to offending). This is not unusual. Trading standards often use members of the public to make test purchases of cigarettes etc.
we have to find a reason McInnes was protected. Just a suggestion
MW