Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

That explains it. I don’t have the Harrison book or the Stoddart one or the Samson one. None are available at the moment. I’m sy]ure that they’ll turn up for sale eventually.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

I noticed online that Audrey Gillan was asking if anyone knew who Nate Campbell is. It seems that he sets himself up as a ‘cold case expert’ but I don’t know if he’s any more qualified than anyone else.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Another part of the book that stood out was on page 43. Beattie said that Alexander Hannah told him that John actually had no money and took the taxi fair from Helen. Then George Puttock said that he tracked Hannah down and was told by him that John paid the taxi and ran after Helen and he “got hold of her but she was resisting him.”

I hadn’t heard this story before unless it had slipped my mind? Can anyone else remember hearing this?

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

[rjpalmer]

This is Paterson's painting "Simon," as mentioned in the above article.

[rjpalmer]

4. I’m also not totally convinced about the killer giving his real name in the taxi.

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the links, Barn. I used to know a printer many years ago who owned and operated a linotype machine and showed me the basics of how it worked. They were really quite amazing machines--masterpieces of engineering.

Each to his or her own, but I still find it quite a stretch to believe that any printer would describe himself as working in a laboratory, any more than an auto mechanic or a skilled wood worker would, but I'll leave it at that.

Me too Roger. There could have been a bit of self-aggrandising going on though. Making himself sound like a scientist to impress maybe?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another part of the book that stood out was on page 43. Beattie said that Alexander Hannah told him that John actually had no money and took the taxi fair from Helen. Then George Puttock said that he tracked Hannah down and was told by him that John paid the taxi and ran after Helen and he “got hold of her but she was resisting him.”

I hadn’t heard this story before unless it had slipped my mind? Can anyone else remember hearing this?

[Ms Diddles]

Thanks Ms D.

You’re absolutely right to pull me up on that one. I don’t know why I said it to be honest because Barn had recently been talking about the killer perhaps being triggered into killing by the discovery that the three were menstruating which I think is possible.

Well, it's always possible that he set out that night with the intention to kill, or it could be that something which Helen said or did triggered the murderous impulse either whilst dancing in the Barrowland or during the taxi ride.

On balance I'm inclined to think that it was something which occurred when he was alone with Helen after the taxi ride (possibly the revelation that she was menstruating that sealed her fate).

Even if we assume for a moment that all of the information which he gave out during the course of the night and during the taxi ride was completely false, the risks he ran that night were enormous:

1) Engaging not only with Helen but with Jeannie and Castlemilk John for the duration of the evening.

2) Engaging in the argument over the cigarette machine with the Barrowlands manager.

3) The taxi ride and prolonged conversation with not just Helen but Jeannie too (with the taxi driver present).

That's personally why I lean towards the murder being spontaneous.

[cobalt]

Maybe I am in the minority in seeing little resemblance between the BJ portrait and the photo of John Templeton which was published in the Daily Record. It could be the book has photos that I have not seen.

I commented earlier on how the Templeton photo, presumably from 1967, was very typical of a 22 year old Glaswegian of that era. The hair style is still a little mid 60s but starting to become fashionably longer and with emerging sideburns. Exactly how a 'dapper' young man (as Templeton was described when older I think by Barn, who knew him) would look. By 1969 he would look a little older obviously, his hair and sideburns probably longer as was the fashion and perhaps he was considering a Zapata moustache.
Here lies the problem. All of the witnesses commented on BJ being slightly 'square' for the times with a rather formal appearance. The BJ portrait suggests his sense of fashion had ended around 1964 with a Prince Charles type hair style and no sideburns. Templeton in his photo looks a bit more 'flash' than that, a young man attuned to 'the look' of the times.

Has the author made any link between Templeton and the biblical references remembered by both Helen's sister and associates of Jemima McDonald, the second presumed victim?

Has the author been able to place Templeton as a patron of the Barrowland Ballroom? We know he met his future wife in a ballroom but that was the Majestic, by her account.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another good synopsis, Herlock!

I would just query your statement that he already intended to kill Helen during the taxi ride.

I'm personally not certain that this was the case.

Thanks Ms D.

You’re absolutely right to pull me up on that one. I don’t know why I said it to be honest because Barn had recently been talking about the killer perhaps being triggered into killing by the discovery that the three were menstruating which I think is possible.

[Ms Diddles]

Oh Ms D, I missed that one.

I know that area of Glasgow like the back of my hand, but I confess that I did check on Google Maps if there actually was a Bryers Road in Glasgow. Doh!

Ha!

You know, when reading a book about my home town by someone who has no connection with the place, I always expect a few errors re place names and geography.

It can actually be quite irritating.

Other than the blips mentioned, I actually think she's done pretty well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, my apologies, you are absolutely right re the absolute lack of a defifinitive DNA connection.

Thinking more about it, I think that the missing tooth in both the killer's and John Templetons upper right jaw is quite compelling.

No problem Barn, I probably didn’t make myself very clear.

Your right. It’s a real pity that Jeannie never got a look at him. This guy is a decent suspect. I keep going back to the photo in comparison with the Patterson painting which Jeannie said was spot on? One thing that surprised me a bit was that Templeton’s wife, whilst not appearing to believe that he was the killer, didn’t appear at all upset by the insinuation that her ex might have been a serial killer. And that he was in the habit of going out on night-time walks and smartly dressed.

One of the annoying things about the case Barn is confirming the reliability of the sources. Some things are stated but it’s impossible to check the reliability, or otherwise.

[Ms Diddles]

Another good synopsis, Herlock!

This is an impressive book and the author is to be congratulated on her work.

Agreed!

1. My first point is that I was under the impression that the initial claim was that the author had found a suspect that wasn’t John Irvine McInnes but who had a familial connection? Did I get the wrong impression or misunderstand the lead up to the book because, as it stands, there is no evidence that this John Templeton has any connection to the McInnes family. This doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have one of course.

2. A question for Barn and MsD…what happened to John Muir Templeton (1933-1998)? What did I miss? How and why was he eliminated? It seems that he was discovered as having an actual ancestral link but then forgotten about?

TBH I am not the best at interpreting genealogical information either and plan to re-read that section once I have finished the book.

I do recall when doing my first cursory read thinking that one of the last remaining John Templetons on the list was dismissed rather prematurely, but I've already forgotten the details.

3. Is it being forgotten that Jeannie said: “Templeton, Sempleson, Emerson,” as possibles for the name given by John in the taxi? So why not one of the other two names? Also, as she was saying that it just sounded like one of the above, then it’s possible that it could have been something entirely different. It could have been Templeman or Emery or Henderson?

4. I’m also not totally convinced about the killer giving his real name in the taxi. The author suggests that as the killer had a rigid moral code that he would have been reluctant to lie. Others might disagree but I’m nowhere near convinced by this. Yes, he knew that Helen was going to die but Jeannie wasn’t. Could he have been unaware that Jeannie had heard him give his real name? Not impossible but surely unlikely in the confines of a taxi? And was it a black cab type or just a normal car? If the latter then he would also have risked the driver hearing it too. So whilst I’m not dismissing it I tend to doubt that a killer would have given his real name under those circumstances.

I've always assumed it was a black cab, but that may be erroneous.

I too felt that the notion that the killer gave his correct name due to him having a strict moral code was stretching credibility somewhat.

I would just query your statement that he already intended to kill Helen during the taxi ride.

I'm personally not certain that this was the case.

5. Might he have given a clue though? I haven’t seen this picked up on before but when asked about what he did for holidays John said that his family had a caravan. Where? In Irvine (John IRVINE McInnes?) Only a suggestion.

Hehehe! I like your thinking outside the box, but that's quite a stretch there Herlock!

Irvine is just down the Ayrshire coast and along with Saltcoats and Girvan would likely be a popular spot for Glasgow folk to have a caravan.

6. The photograph of the John Templeton who is the subject of the book (and who I have to admit looks a lot like the painting by Patterson) has his hair parted on the wrong side and the missing tooth on the wrong side but his wife recalled which side he parted his hair on so it appears possible that the photograph was reversed from the negative. I was a little wary of this at first but I certainly don’t want to imply any dishonesty as I see no evidence of it anywhere in the book. Agree or disagree with conclusions and suggestions, I think that this is an honest book.

7. Finally, in the photograph Templeton’s mouth isn’t open enough to see the overlapping teeth mentioned by Jeannie. A dentist said that he ‘might’ just be able to discern a slight overlap but this doesn’t convince me. Look at the mould that Beattie carried. It was made from Jeannie’s description and the overlap looks easily noticeable. Jeannie wasn’t a dentist. Any overlapping of John’s teeth would have been fairly easy to spot I’d have thought. I can’t see anyone meeting the John Templeton in the photo and noting an overlap.


Like Barn I certainly recommend this book. Was John Templeton Bible John? I tend to think not but he could have been. He’s certainly of interest. My money is still on John Irvine McInnes but will we ever get to the truth? Probably not. I’d like to see Audrey Gillan and Marcello Mega write a really heavyweight book on the subject though.

Agree!

Another interesting point for me us the statement that BJ was familiar with the pubs in Yoker.

Barn may think otherwise, but in my experience Yoker is not the kind of place you would be familiar with unless you lived or worked there.

It's kind of off the beaten track, and is ostensibly a residential area with not a lot going on.

In contrast there are lots of areas in Glasgow which are far away or not immediately accessible from where I live, but I visit them because there are things going on there (nice bars, restaurants, shops, parks, walks), Yoker is the antithesis of this, which is probably why Limmy picked it for this sketch:

https://youtu.be/0YfRbNipdOg?si=bRrTz39EK88QfJHQ

barnflatwyngarde - I'm wondering if Yoker was a more happening suburb back in the day. Any idea?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Cheers Barn,

Point 1) I’ve probably not been very clear. Either that or perhaps I’ve misunderstood the meaning so I’ll try and be clearer. The author worked back down the years until she found the McInnes/Templeton link and she then proceeded forward toward the present day. In doing this she found John Muir Templeton. But the next 32 John Templeton’s that she found however weren’t found by following a family link but by looking for John Templeton’s of the correct age range in the Scotland’s People Database. So the John Templeton that she finishes up with can’t be shown to have any family connection to the McInnes family.

Point 6) You’ve removed any doubt there Barn. If you have a photograph of him with his hair combed that way then the authors suggestion that the photograph is in reverse is a valid one.

Point 3) I agree that the circumstantial evidence does firm up and is certainly intriguing. I’ll list the authors points for those that haven’t read the book:

• Bible John used the name John Templeton.
• The name John Templeton exists in the ancestors of Hector and Janet McInnes and their DNA shared patterns with the DNA extracted from Helen Puttock’s stockings.
• He fits the BJ age profile.
• Would have had a local accent like BJ.
• He was a foster child as BJ was suspected of being.
• He was fostered by a family who lived within walking distance of the Children’s Home that BJ identified.
• Templeton grew up with one sibling, a sister, as BJ said that he did.
• JT was living locally when new timetables and fare schedules came out. BJ was familiar with these.
• JT moved to a flat in North Kelvinside 3 months before Helen Puttock’s murder which was within walking distance of where BJ alighted the number 6 night bus on the night of HP’s murder.

On the second point above Barn, this is what I meant in my own point 1. The name John Templeton is in the ancestors with shared DNA but not this John Templeton who wasn’t found by following the family line.

I’ll add that he resembles the painting.

Hi Herlock, my apologies, you are absolutely right re the absolute lack of a defifinitive DNA connection.

Thinking more about it, I think that the missing tooth in both the killer's and John Templetons upper right jaw is quite compelling.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Yeah, Barn!

I also had a wry smile at "Knightsbridge" instead of "Knightswood".

Oh Ms D, I missed that one.

I know that area of Glasgow like the back of my hand, but I confess that I did check on Google Maps if there actually was a Bryers Road in Glasgow. Doh!