Madeleine McCann

[caz]

They left the patio door unlocked so their friends could also check on the family. They go in and they go out that way. So there is already and entry an exit point and its even unlocked. There is no need for an open window.

Except that there is no evidence that the friends went far enough into the apartment or the children's bedroom to see that all three were there, safe and sound. Nobody was actually expecting a child to disappear. It was more a case of listening out for any sounds of crying, like the chalet maids used to do at Pontin's when I was a child. "Baby crying in chalet 13", for example, chalked on a blackboard in the ballroom.

Love,

Caz
X

[Batman]

they sensibly took advantage of the resort's baby monitoring services.
X

Which is what? Somebody in the resort walks to the door every so often and listens for any noise? If there is some they call the parents. If not, they walk away. That's it, right?

[caz]

I don't see how people can accept witnesses living above/nearby heard Maddie crying but don't accept them when it comes to the area being high in criminal activity associated with people watching/entering holiday homes.

I don't accept that anyone could have claimed to hear Maddie crying. If they heard anyone crying it could just as well have been one of the twins. I don't think anyone reported hearing more than one child's cries, which was what Kate tried to imply Maddie had told her: "Why didn't you come when 'we' were crying?" (or something like that?)

It's all rather hard to believe. If the place was such a known hotbed for intruders, how was this kept such a secret from the McCanns et al? Why didn't any of the neighbouring residents warn these young families of the obvious dangers of leaving their small children alone for a second?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Which is what? Somebody in the resort walks to the door every so often and listens for any noise? If there is some they call the parents. If not, they walk away. That's it, right?

So what are you saying? The friends who took advantage of this service could still have sedated their kids?

Love,

Caz
X

[louisa]

It's all rather hard to believe. If the place was such a known hotbed for intruders, how was this kept such a secret from the McCanns et al? Why didn't any of the neighbouring residents warn these young families of the obvious dangers of leaving their small children alone for a second?

Love,

Caz
X

That makes sense to me.

[Abby Normal]

Here is why none of that makes sense. They left the patio door unlocked so their friends could also check on the family. They go in and they go out that way. So there is already and entry an exit point and its even unlocked. There is no need for an open window.

What you want me to believe is that despite this simple plan of the unlocked door, that the parents then opened the window and messed up their stories by claiming it had been jimmied while saying nothing about the planned unlocked patio door, because the plan slipped their mind and one them decided an open window is much more convincing on the spot.

Your explanation is not the easiest. It's not the most parsimonious. It is the most complex. It requires in addition to the complexity of getting rid of a body, they try to stage an abduction and then manage to get out of getting caught despite making errors.

The intruder explanation is the easiest. Someone with knowledge of how to make a quick exit, opened the window while in there but never had to use it. You can also hear people coming. It also has precedence at that resort.

HI Batman

Here is why none of that makes sense. They left the patio door unlocked so their friends could also check on the family. They go in and they go out that way.

Then why did they first say they went in and out of the locked door?

So there is already and entry an exit point and its even unlocked. There is no need for an open window.

right. so why did they make a big deal about there being an open window?
staging that's why.

What you want me to believe is that despite this simple plan of the unlocked door, that the parents then opened the window and messed up their stories by claiming it had been jimmied while saying nothing about the planned unlocked patio door, because the plan slipped their mind and one them decided an open window is much more convincing on the spot

except that the door wasn't unlocked according to their first account. so yes they messed up with there story.

Your explanation is not the easiest. It's not the most parsimonious. It is the most complex. It requires in addition to the complexity of getting rid of a body, they try to stage an abduction and then manage to get out of getting caught despite making errors.

actually, I think it is the "easiest" explanation. as Caz stated whoever took the child would have had the "complexity" of getting rid of the body/removing her from the apartment without getting caught. Considerably easier for parents who have free access to her and the apartment. an intruder would have to-know there is a child in the house, successfully break in and out of the house with the child without her waking up and going nuts, do this while not getting caught or seen by anyone, get her out of the public eye
once she is out of the house, if they kill her then they would ALSO have to dispose of the body, all the while if with an accomplice-nobody say anything or screwing up and all this with no forensic evidence or no evidence whatsoever indicating an abduction.

for a parent, IMHO it would be much easier. shes a small body-I could think of many scenarios where they easily remove her from the house and dispose of her. Probably the most likely she was dumped in the ocean.

The intruder explanation is the easiest. Someone with knowledge of how to make a quick exit, opened the window while in there but never had to use it. You can also hear people coming. It also has precedence at that resort

I don't think it is. 9 times out of 10 when a child goes missing/murdered-its someone in the family.
and don't you think that if there was so much precedent for break ins the parents would have known about it? they are there with a group of friends, some of which were regulars and the people who they rented the apartment from where English-surely word would have gotten around.

no, as ive mentioned a million times before-when these types of cases come up theres always these apocryphal stories of break ins/strangers about blah blah blah. you could randomly pick any town in the world with a certain population and find these kind of stories. usually its a red herring.

[Abby Normal]

If you KNEW the following three things..

1. You had three sleeping children within your apartment

2. No adults were with the children whilst they slept.

3. One of your children was prone to waking up during the night and calling for her mother.

Would you leave your door unlocked?

------------------------------------------------

And in light of the above, if you came back from your drinking and carousing session with your friends and found one of your children missing - SURELY you would naturally presume that she had woken (as she had the previous night) and gone wandering off outside looking for her parents?

I mean - come on - that would be the natural assumption wouldn't it?

How many parents would go straight to the window and scream over the balcony "SHE'S BEEN TAKEN!"?

.

yup. No innocent parent would have behave like that.

[Batman]

It's all rather hard to believe. If the place was such a known hotbed for intruders, how was this kept such a secret from the McCanns et al? Why didn't any of the neighbouring residents warn these young families of the obvious dangers of leaving their small children alone for a second?

Love,

Caz
X

There you have it. Nobody would have a family stay there if they knew better. This is the whole point of why the investigation was botched. It is like the mayor in Jaws having to handle their belief that it will kill tourism there (probably eventually balanced out due to crime buffs visiting the place) and across Portugal in general. That all the dirty laundry about this place was going to get aired, and it did. A political nightmare. There you also have the explanation for the back and forth between the UK and Portugal.

Amaral got it wrong. Operation Grange has demonstrated his book is full of factual errors and bad investigation by undercovering facts he said never existed, namely people he didn't bother interviewing or chasing up on.

Given the places history, it is only a matter of time before it escalated into something like this.

How can this be hard to believe. Even Operation grange identified people they want to speak with and mobile phone owners in the area who have yet to be traced.

[Batman]

actually, I think it is the "easiest" explanation. as Caz stated whoever took the child would have had the "complexity" of getting rid of the body/removing her from the apartment without getting caught. Considerably easier for parents who have free access to her and the apartment. an intruder would have to-know there is a child in the house, successfully break in and out of the house with the child without her waking up and going nuts, do this while not getting caught or seen by anyone, get her out of the public eye
once she is out of the house, if they kill her then they would ALSO have to dispose of the body, all the while if with an accomplice-nobody say anything or screwing up and all this with no forensic evidence or no evidence whatsoever indicating an abduction.

Even Jamie Bulger was snatched by two other children in broad daylight from his mother as she turned her back.

It is more complex to say the parents did it because they have to still be there managing a staged abduction. The abductor just needs to take and go.

Also whoever said the body was dumped at sea needs to explain why the tide didn't wash her body back in?

[Harry D]

Even Jamie Bulger was snatched by two other children in broad daylight from his mother as she turned her back.

It is more complex to say the parents did it because they have to still be there managing a staged abduction. The abductor just needs to take and go.

Also whoever said the body was dumped at sea needs to explain why the tide didn't wash her body back in?

Why do they need to stage an abduction when they claimed the door was left unlocked? "The abductor just needs to take and go" would be exactly their thinking as well.

Also, not everything dumped at sea washes up to shore.

[Batman]

Why do they need to stage an abduction when they claimed the door was left unlocked? "The abductor just needs to take and go" would be exactly their thinking as well.

Also, not everything dumped at sea washes up to shore.

Why did they need to open the window and claim it had been jimmied? The excuse so far is that they forgot their staged story and created this on the spot.

Not everything dumped at sea washes up to shore, but dumping close to shore usually makes a body retrievable after searching, if not on the shore with the tide.

The type of dumping I think the OP suggested was going out to sea and weighing her down, which requires evidence of how they did that without being noticed.

[caz]

There you have it. Nobody would have a family stay there if they knew better. This is the whole point of why the investigation was botched. It is like the mayor in Jaws having to handle their belief that it will kill tourism there (probably eventually balanced out due to crime buffs visiting the place) and across Portugal in general. That all the dirty laundry about this place was going to get aired, and it did. A political nightmare. There you also have the explanation for the back and forth between the UK and Portugal.

Hi Batman,

With respect I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. Of course I understand why the owners/managers of the resort itself would not relish any bad publicity about alleged or actual burglars/child abusers roaming round these supposedly family-friendly holiday apartments. Mind you, you'd think they would have taken more security measures of their own to prevent any more serious incidents that couldn't be covered up. Why did they not make it a rule that parents must not leave young children alone in holiday accommodation? That would be common sense anywhere, even with no history of any problems.

But if it was true that the female resident immediately above the McCanns had come upon an intruder and seen him leaping out of her window, and had also heard one of the McCann children crying in the night, why did SHE not have a quiet word with any and every young family staying nearby, if only to warn them about her own distressing experience? I'd have been beside myself with guilt in those circumstances, if I thought for a second that Maddie could have been taken by the same man who had entered my apartment.

Love,

Caz
X

[Batman]

When I first watched the case I thought they had covered up something. Then because of all the publicity I stayed away from watching it. It was only a few years ago because of Operation Grange that I went back to reading about it and one place I came across was this...

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

It was fully sourced and changed my mind about them completely. What was reported vs the facts are two totally different things.

[Abby Normal]

When I first watched the case I thought they had covered up something. Then because of all the publicity I stayed away from watching it. It was only a few years ago because of Operation Grange that I went back to reading about it and one place I came across was this...

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

It was fully sourced and changed my mind about them completely. What was reported vs the facts are two totally different things.

I stopped reading when the very first fact/rebuttal was bullshit.
of course they don't even bring up the front door...of course they don't mention that Jerry at first said the FRONT door was locked and they went through it using there key. they don't even mention the front door in this. They only focus on the patio door.
so of course the first time the McCanns mention the patio door is to say it was unlocked-but after they had said the front door was locked.
twisting the truth to suit the agenda.

[Abby Normal]

There you have it. Nobody would have a family stay there if they knew better. This is the whole point of why the investigation was botched. It is like the mayor in Jaws having to handle their belief that it will kill tourism there (probably eventually balanced out due to crime buffs visiting the place) and across Portugal in general. That all the dirty laundry about this place was going to get aired, and it did. A political nightmare. There you also have the explanation for the back and forth between the UK and Portugal.

Amaral got it wrong. Operation Grange has demonstrated his book is full of factual errors and bad investigation by undercovering facts he said never existed, namely people he didn't bother interviewing or chasing up on.

Given the places history, it is only a matter of time before it escalated into something like this.

How can this be hard to believe. Even Operation grange identified people they want to speak with and mobile phone owners in the area who have yet to be traced.

you entirely missed the point. the reason no one told them about the evil boogey men because they didn't (at least to the extent your trying to imply) exist. it wasn't really an issue.