Madeleine McCann

[caz]

Hi Caz
Thanks!!!
I think you are suggesting that something happened to her before the fateful dinner? But didn't the friends they were with at dinner say they took turns checking in on the kids? So either she was still there at some point during the dinner or the friends were in on it-ie something happening to her before the dinner?

Not my suggestion, Abby, because I really don't know where the truth begins and ends.

Nobody but those most closely involved really knows what went on during that holiday regarding the evening child care. I have seen no details of who checked up on whose children, and how often, on the nights from Saturday to Wednesday, or if all the adults dined out every night. The details of the Thursday afternoon/evening contain many timing discrepancies and the last of the friends who claimed to enter the McCanns apartment to listen for any crying admitted he didn't go right into the bedroom because all was quiet so he didn't actually see Madeleine at that time.

The assumption would have been that no noise meant all the kids were present and correct, alive and well and sleeping soundly. That still surprises me considering the unlocked doors, unless the parents could be sure their children wouldn't wake and wander out, finding themselves in a strange place and mum and dad not there.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Not my suggestion, Abby, because I really don't know where the truth begins and ends.

Nobody but those most closely involved really knows what went on during that holiday regarding the evening child care. I have seen no details of who checked up on whose children, and how often, on the nights from Saturday to Wednesday, or if all the adults dined out every night. The details of the Thursday afternoon/evening contain many timing discrepancies and the last of the friends who claimed to enter the McCanns apartment to listen for any crying admitted he didn't go right into the bedroom because all was quiet so he didn't actually see Madeleine at that time.

The assumption would have been that no noise meant all the kids were present and correct, alive and well and sleeping soundly. That still surprises me considering the unlocked doors, unless the parents could be sure their children wouldn't wake and wander out, finding themselves in a strange place and mum and dad not there.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks Caz
Well the fact then that they actually didn't check in on the kids or even see madeline explains a lot-or if she was aleady knocked out or dead from an overdose of sleeping pills.

Didn't the parents admit to giving the kid/s sleeping pills or something else to make them sleep in the past??

[caz]

Didn't the parents admit to giving the kid/s sleeping pills or something else to make them sleep in the past??

I don't know about previously to the holiday, but I seem to recall Gerry's father saying they were sometimes given Calpol, which means nothing. Most parents are (or at least were, when my daughter was growing up) advised to give their young children Calpol to ease cold symptoms, bring down a temperature etc.

Gerry himself gave a nervous laugh and scratched his ear when denying his children had been given any kind of sedative on that holiday when asked during one televised interview.

I'm not sure I'd have been able to laugh off a question like that in such heartbreaking circumstances. Assuming Madeleine was taken by an outsider, this person would have had to work quickly between checks on the kids. They could also have had no idea that all three children would be asleep and, crucially, would remain asleep until they had managed to lift Madeleine out of her bed and get away from the apartment unhindered.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Another odd thing I have just remembered is that Kate McCann felt the need to explain why she went right into the kid's bedroom at 10 pm, when she found Madeleine missing and raised the alarm. She said she only did so on this occasion because she noticed the door was a bit further open than she remembered leaving it when going to the tapas bar, and this puzzled her. This would suggest a previously established pattern of only listening outside the door, except that Gerry claimed he went right in and saw all three kids when he did an earlier check around 9.05 pm. And this raises yet another question. If Kate knew that Gerry and one of the other fathers had both been in the apartment separately to check on the kids between 9.05 and 9.35, why would she not naturally have assumed one of them had left the door as she found it at 10? Why would she have been puzzled? Was it more a case of a mother's instinct - a bad feeling - that made her go right into the room? The abduction was supposed to have taken place between Gerry's visit and the other father's, so if the latter had done a proper check he would presumably have seen Madeleine's empty bed and been the one to raise the alarm, sparing Kate that particular task. Someone had to find the girl gone, but was Kate the intended finder? Curiously, she said she had asked that other father to check on "Madeleine" when he went to check on his own kids, between Gerry's last check and Kate's. This must have been an innocent slip of the tongue because a) she would surely have asked him to check on all three children, not just Madeleine, and b) he didn't actually check on Madeleine. He only saw the twins because they were visible through the open door, while Madeleine's bed was behind it. It therefore fell to someone else to make the fateful discovery.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

I will never understand why these two, high educated parents thought it was sensible or acceptable to leave three tiny children alone in an unlocked apartment. They were guilty of neglect and should have been charged accordingly.

With regard to whether they were drugged, both were doctors so would have known that the children would not have needed sleeping tablets to keep them asleep. A small dose of an antihistamine such a Piriton would have been a safe way of ensuring they slept. Therefore, I would rule out some form of accidental death linked to an overdose of sleeping pills.

For years, I thought they were probably guilty of nothing but neglect but these days I am not so sure. We cannot make the mistake of assuming that middle-class, professional people do not harm their children.

One thing is for sure. They are still practising doctors and I hope they take better care over their patients than they did with their own children.

[Abby Normal]

Another odd thing I have just remembered is that Kate McCann felt the need to explain why she went right into the kid's bedroom at 10 pm, when she found Madeleine missing and raised the alarm. She said she only did so on this occasion because she noticed the door was a bit further open than she remembered leaving it when going to the tapas bar, and this puzzled her. This would suggest a previously established pattern of only listening outside the door, except that Gerry claimed he went right in and saw all three kids when he did an earlier check around 9.05 pm. And this raises yet another question. If Kate knew that Gerry and one of the other fathers had both been in the apartment separately to check on the kids between 9.05 and 9.35, why would she not naturally have assumed one of them had left the door as she found it at 10? Why would she have been puzzled? Was it more a case of a mother's instinct - a bad feeling - that made her go right into the room? The abduction was supposed to have taken place between Gerry's visit and the other father's, so if the latter had done a proper check he would presumably have seen Madeleine's empty bed and been the one to raise the alarm, sparing Kate that particular task. Someone had to find the girl gone, but was Kate the intended finder? Curiously, she said she had asked that other father to check on "Madeleine" when he went to check on his own kids, between Gerry's last check and Kate's. This must have been an innocent slip of the tongue because a) she would surely have asked him to check on all three children, not just Madeleine, and b) he didn't actually check on Madeleine. He only saw the twins because they were visible through the open door, while Madeleine's bed was behind it. It therefore fell to someone else to make the fateful discovery.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks Caz
Why was the abduction supposed to have taken place between Gerrys and the other fathers visit?why couldn't it happen after the other fathers check and Kates?

[caz]

Hi Abby,

I meant 'supposed' as in 'thought', because Jane Tanner, one of the 'friends' claimed to see a child being carried by a man around 9.15, between Gerry's check and the other father's. Because the other father didn't go into the bedroom when Kate asked him to check on "Madeleine", but just saw the twins asleep through the open door, she could have been gone by then, and we only have Gerry's word for it that she was there at 9.05, when he last checked. All we really know is that she was not there at 10 pm when Kate eventually took her turn, so she was the one to make the discovery and react to it.

The Tanner sighting has since been thoroughly discredited for several reasons, so who knows precisely when Madeleine was last in that apartment? Opinions range from as early as the Sunday afternoon/evening, the first full day of the holiday, for the last reliable sightings, up until a few minutes before Kate raised the alarm on the Thursday evening.

One piece of bad luck for the McCanns was their decision to have breakfast and lunch in their own apartment with the kids after the Sunday, while the other families all continued to breakfast together at the Millennium restaurant (it was included in the holiday price) and also took lunch together on the balcony of Dr Payne's apartment on the floor above. The McCanns also declined to go to the beach as a family with the others, and seem to have done their own thing quite a bit.

Nothing wrong with that (I can't think of anything worse than going on holiday with a group of friends or family and spending all the time with them). But it has allowed for speculation that none of the friends may actually have seen - or missed - Madeleine after that first full day. In fact there are precious few reliable sightings of the McCanns all together as a family of five after that Sunday, because they tended to split up and one parent would be seen at a time, alone or with a couple of the kids. They even used different doors to enter their apartment, Gerry going in the front, Kate via the patio doors at the rear. Again, not that unusual, as three young children together would have been a handful for both parents, let alone one parent, and each would have valued some time to themselves.

Again, the problem is that speculation has been allowed to grow that they could not afford to be seen together during the day as a family of four because people would naturally have asked where Madeleine was. And the nanny who was responsible for her in the creche turned out to be another unreliable witness. For one thing there was a family connection because one of her friends was the daughter of Madeleine's godfather. The creche records also only show Kate McCann's signature when Madeleine was signed in and out, even though they claimed Gerry dropped her off or collected her on at least one of those occasions. Nothing has been straightforward in this case from day one.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I meant 'supposed' as in 'thought', because Jane Tanner, one of the 'friends' claimed to see a child being carried by a man around 9.15, between Gerry's check and the other father's. Because the other father didn't go into the bedroom when Kate asked him to check on "Madeleine", but just saw the twins asleep through the open door, she could have been gone by then, and we only have Gerry's word for it that she was there at 9.05, when he last checked. All we really know is that she was not there at 10 pm when Kate eventually took her turn, so she was the one to make the discovery and react to it.

The Tanner sighting has since been thoroughly discredited for several reasons, so who knows precisely when Madeleine was last in that apartment? Opinions range from as early as the Sunday afternoon/evening, the first full day of the holiday, for the last reliable sightings, up until a few minutes before Kate raised the alarm on the Thursday evening.

One piece of bad luck for the McCanns was their decision to have breakfast and lunch in their own apartment with the kids after the Sunday, while the other families all continued to breakfast together at the Millennium restaurant (it was included in the holiday price) and also took lunch together on the balcony of Dr Payne's apartment on the floor above. The McCanns also declined to go to the beach as a family with the others, and seem to have done their own thing quite a bit.

Nothing wrong with that (I can't think of anything worse than going on holiday with a group of friends or family and spending all the time with them). But it has allowed for speculation that none of the friends may actually have seen - or missed - Madeleine after that first full day. In fact there are precious few reliable sightings of the McCanns all together as a family of five after that Sunday, because they tended to split up and one parent would be seen at a time, alone or with a couple of the kids. They even used different doors to enter their apartment, Gerry going in the front, Kate via the patio doors at the rear. Again, not that unusual, as three young children together would have been a handful for both parents, let alone one parent, and each would have valued some time to themselves.

Again, the problem is that speculation has been allowed to grow that they could not afford to be seen together during the day as a family of four because people would naturally have asked where Madeleine was. And the nanny who was responsible for her in the creche turned out to be another unreliable witness. For one thing there was a family connection because one of her friends was the daughter of Madeleine's godfather. The creche records also only show Kate McCann's signature when Madeleine was signed in and out, even though they claimed Gerry dropped her off or collected her on at least one of those occasions. Nothing has been straightforward in this case from day one.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks for all the info Caz, A very strange and sad case.
One of the things that struck me with this and similar to the JonBenet ramsey case is the parents behavior immediately after they discover their child missing.

In the Ramsey case upon finding out shes gone they don't search the entire house. Any normal parent would have searched every inch, and I mean every inch, of the inside of the house and immediate surroundings, and frantically calling out the childs name. That John Ramsey only found her body much later after police TOLD him to look around is simply incredible to me. The ramseys (if guilty-and I think theres a good chance) were probably thinking-why the hell cant the cops find her body?

And that Kate's reaction is to run back to the restaurant, leaving the other two children alone!?! is again unbeleiveable. Any normal parents reaction would be OMG is the person/s responsible still nearby and to try to immediately protect the other children and look around for their missing child. And I wouldn't doubt that like the ramseys the McCanns (if guilty) were also probably thinking-why the hell isn't one of these other people sent to check on their kids seeing that madeleine is missing?

Its a common ploy by guilty parties to try to have someone else discover the body or first raise the alarm of trouble.

I think there is 50/50 chance at least both sets of parents had something to do with it. And even if they didn't they all suck and are shitty parents.

[caz]

You might well say that, Abby. But I couldn't possibly comment.

Love,

Caz
X

[louisa]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as this case is another one that has always interested me.

The McCanns left their children 'home alone' while they went out drinking (9 bottles between 7 people) at a tapas bar. They periodically return to check on them.

Kate returns, finds Madeleine missing and shouts over the balcony "She's been taken!".

Considering the McCanns had left the doors unlocked would she not have assumed that the little girl had woken up, got out of bed and wandered off on her own? No, Kate said she had 'been taken'.

Then all the panic begins, the police are called, people are milling about inside the apartment, contaminating a potential crime scene.

Now here is the strangest part.........the McCann's other children - twins - remain fast asleep the entire time and end up being carried out to another venue, still asleep.

The next day while the police and hundreds of others are searching for little Maddie, her mother goes jogging on the beach, Gerry plays tennis.

My theory is that the McCann's had left the children alone on previous occasions and no harm had come to them.

There is a YouTube interview with Kate where she says that Maddie had woken up the previous night crying and asking where her mother was.

I believe that on the night she 'went missing' her parents had given her - and the twins - a small amount of drugs to keep them asleep while they went out. When Kate returned from the tapas bar she could not revive Maddie - she had given her too much of whatever drug she used, maybe morphine?

Her friends covered up, one of them taking Maddie's body into his own apartment. He had a boat and took her onto that boat the next day and dropped her into the sea.

Kate and Gerry had to cover it all up because they knew their careers would be at an end if the truth came out. "Doctors killed their own child with drugs"

There are a lot of interviews with both Gerry and Kate and not a single tear is shed. In one interview Gerry is asked "Do you have any guilt over Madeleine's disappearance?" His answer "None whatsoever".

When the couple were subpoenaed to return to Portugal they were asked 40 questions by the police. They answered "No comment" to every single one, even the one where they were asked if they killed their daughter.

One of the questions was "Is it true that you were trying to get a female relative to adopt Maddie because you could no longer cope with her?"

"No comment" was the answer.




How's that for a theory?

[Geddy2112]

How's that for a theory?

Good enough for me. Regardless of if they unintentionally killed Maddie and did away with her body or not for me they are still responsible as they left her and her siblings home alone. How the hell they have not been charged with at least neglect is remarkable. The money they have made from this tragedy is remarkable as is some of the 'in high places' friends they seem to hang about with.
Stinks....

[Abby Normal]

Good enough for me. Regardless of if they unintentionally killed Maddie and did away with her body or not for me they are still responsible as they left her and her siblings home alone. How the hell they have not been charged with at least neglect is remarkable. The money they have made from this tragedy is remarkable as is some of the 'in high places' friends they seem to hang about with.
Stinks....

Hi geddy and Louisa
Couldn't agree more. Please see my post several posts up.

[John G]

Is it possible that Madeline could have woken up from a bad dream and, as a consequence, went into, say, her parents bedroom for comfort; upon finding her patents were not in the apartment she panicked, leaving the apartment to search for them, at which point she was abducted by an opportunist?

Considering the McCann's were both doctors, I consider it unlikely that she overdosed on medication.

[Geddy2112]

Is it possible that Madeline could have woken up from a bad dream and, as a consequence, went into, say, her parents bedroom for comfort; upon finding her patents were not in the apartment she panicked, leaving the apartment to search for them, at which point she was abducted by an opportunist?

Quite possible yes, why not. However that still does not excuse the parents for leaving her home alone...

[John Wheat]

Maddie is either dead or being abused by paedophiles. One way or another her parents are to blame.