JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

The second contradiction to WC was by the other agent in the Limo, Kellerman. His original testimony was he heard one shot and then a " flurry" of shots and felt like he was in a shooting gallery. He felt confident that there was more than one shooter.

Kellerman's original report said "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?""

No mention of a "flurry" of shots. No comparison to a "shooting gallery". No speculation on number of shooters. And no one else in the car heard JFK say anything after he was shot in the throat.

By the time of Kellerman's Warren Commission testimony, "two" has become "a flurry", but Kellerman, on questioning, both said that it was two shots and that it was at least two shots. And they occur after Kellernman has turned forward, not while he was facing JFK, as he claimed in the initial report. Later on, Kellerman again says he heard a total of three shots, and that the Zparuder film showed evidence of only three Shots, but believed that "if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen."

Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of origin or source of those shots.
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would have to come from the rear.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the time of the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots came from the front of the President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

At no time does Kellerman claim that there were multiple shooters or that he felt like they were in a "shooting gallery".

At least as late as 1981, Kellerman dismissed of the idea there was a Conspiracy in the death of JFK.

The only claims that Kellerman thought there was a Conspiracy come after his death from other people.

[Fiver]

If Kennedy were shot in the back of the head you would think the front of Kennedy would be splattered with blood meaning Connally and Kellerman..

Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.

Governor CONNALLY. So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.
Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.

Mrs. CONNALLY. I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

[Patrick Differ]

I'm not an expert in thermodynamics or fluid dynamics but I have been to Dealy Plaza. I think what throws this into contention is a lack of trust in government and the fact that Oswald was assassinated by a Mob associate. Whether it was actually Oswald or someone else in the School Book depository we will never know. People who ran to the grassy knoll is another puzzle. But if you were to ambush someone you couldn't pick a better place. The knoll fence and angle lends itself to conspiracy because of the Zapruder film and because Parkland Doctors initially thought the neck and head were entrance wounds. They had seen many gunshots as this was the trauma unit.
in any case Oswald proclaimed his innocence, that he never owned or purchased a rifle. He admitted to owning a pistol and punching a police officer. He was not afforded counsel before being assassinated yet asked for representation repeatedly.
Without a trial and conviction there will be doubt.
The files of RFK and MLK will also be released in coming months.

[scottnapa]

I think that is a reasonable view from Ely. The Commission reached a conclusion based on all of the evidence it held - including much evidence which is now offered on these pages as proof of something else - and he is still satisfied with its honesty and accuracy, but accepts that evidence was withheld by agencies, probably to conceal their own errors. That is also my opinion.

Yes. I posted this because you and I had had a conversation earlier about whether the Warren Comission lawyers were investigators or not.
Politics accelerated the investigation. The Commission trusted the FBI and CIA. They were mislead by this trust.
Your answer is correct and I appreciate the response The assassination has an extraordinary level of bits that don't easily fit. That's why it is a compelling mystery.
At times the back and forth in the JFK threads into a variation of a Lechmere thread. I prefer a conversation to an argument.

[scottnapa]

[QUOTE=Fiver;n849764]

You repeating false statements does not make them true. The chain of custody on JFK's body was never broken.




Here you are mostly correct. Murder of JFK would only have been a federal crime if it took place on federal land. If he hadn't been murdered, Oswald would have been tried under Texas state law.

[/QUOTE
I am wondering how you interpret the chain of evidence.
I am refering to the body as evidence as it applies to a Texas trial. The body is evidence in a crime in Texas.
I am not saying there wasn't a person with the body, with the casket.None of that applies to my comment about an autopsy.
I am saying there is a very valid legal reason why DR. Rose demanded an autopsy.
This has nothing to do with switching caskets or body snatching. I am talking about TEXAS law
The WC recommend a change in federal law is proof of the validity of the this issue of legality and custody.

[scottnapa]

The questions are based on the premise that a conspiracy would have to have been organised and orchestrated by people/groups of great influence and authority (to be able to set up a dodgy autopsy, a dodgy WC, plant prints etc) as opposed to say, Oswald a three friends in a bar coming up with a ‘conspiracy.’

1. Why, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis and at a time when the government wanted to avoid any escalation with the Soviet Union and with the general anti-communist feeling at the time would they have selected a recent defector to their plot which could only have fuelled fear and paranoia that the Soviets had been involved in the assassination of the President? Oswald’s defection couldn’t have been kept secret.

Question #1

Why, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis and at a time when the government wanted to avoid any escalation with the Soviet Union and with the general anti-communist feeling at the time would they have selected a recent defector to their plot which could only have fueled fear and paranoia that the Soviets had been involved in the assassination of the President? Oswald’s defection couldn’t have been kept secret.

I think you and I will agree on your primary point.

Americans of a certain age will remember that children practiced fallout response by getting under your school desk. (Interesting secret, being under a desk would save anyone from a nuclear attack on America. It would be useful if there was fallout from an American preemptive strike on Russia)

Yes the Cuban Missile Crisis plays an enormous role in the political situation and it’s influenced extends to the investigation This is not a short answer. Such is the norm in the study of the case.

Kennedy had assumed this invasion had been approved by Eisenhower. It had not. The generals in the room found JFK wanting, as he seemed concerned with the inevitable fate of the Cubans that landed at the Bay of Pigs. Some minds in the room saw JFK as a PT Boat commander rather than a president that sees the big picture. The Cuban “Americans” felt betrayed and desired revenge. No doubt they have been mislead about the expected level of US military support. Right wingers immediately accused Kennedy as being soft on Communism. These are violently inclined anti-Kennedy groups. The missile crisis is still on everyone’s mind when Lyndon Johnson insists that everyone come on board to serve on the Warren Commission as Johnson presents the assassination crisis to have a risk similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Phone call Nov 29, 1963

Senator Russell: Well, now, Mr. President, I just can’t serve on that commission..

President Johnson: Dick, it’s already been announced, and you can serve with anybody for the good of America. And this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than’s on the surface, and they’re—we got to take this out of the arena where they’re testifying it’s Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that, and that—kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour. And you’d put on your uniform in a minute.
Johnson uses this threat of nuclear war as a wrench, to tighten the nuts of whoever hesitates to serve him.

Oswald defection couldn’t have been kept secret. 100% yes.

Whether his defection was planned or unplanned. The FBI is interested. Is Oswald a patsy or a lone nut?? We will not find a smoking gun memo to prove this, such a document does not exist. We have only indicators.

if Oswald is a patsy, then his profile fits the needs of a plan that called for a loser to take the blame. The patsy role is discussed by KKK leader Milteer as a result of FBI informant Wille Somerset on 9 November.

MILTEER: There ain't any count down to it, we have just got to be sitting on go. Count down they can move in on you, and on go they can't. Count down is alright for a slow prepared operation, but in an emergency operation, you have got to be sitting on go.

SOMERSETT: Boy, if that Kennedy gets shot, we have got to know where we are at. Because you know that will be a real shake, if they do that.

MILTEER: They wouldn't leave any stone unturned there no way. They will pick up somebody within hours afterwards, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off.

SOMERSETT: Oh, somebody is going to have to go to jail, if he gets killed.

While Somersett provides information that cannot be corroborated, he was never shown to be wrong. Consider that in the first week of April 1968 Somersett called Miami Police Lieutenant Charles Sapp to inform him he learned on April 1 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was going to be shot. The next day, King was killed at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee.

[scottnapa]

Oswald was arrested at 1.50. They had the rifle and they had the fact that he’d killed Tippit and zero evidence of anyone else’s involvement so they made a natural assumption that he was acting alone. The words “..there was no conspiracy” appear to be the words of the author of the book so can we be certain that the word ‘conspiracy’ was actually mentioned aboard Airforce One or was it more a case of Johnson being told that the evidence pointed to Oswald acting alone in killing Kennedy.

As far as Burkley is concerned I can’t answer that as we don’t know what he’d intended to say but many people changed their mind one way or another over time. This report was 14 years after the event which seems rather a long time to start ‘remembering’ things. He hadn’t been talking to Mark Lane by any chance had he? He was 75 years old at that time.

Thank you for your response.
There are at least three versions of the tapes in existence; one in the LBJ Library, (shorter), two the recoveree d Clifton Tapes (longer with LeMay conversation) and three, the archived copy that William Manchester listened to. Pierre Salinger remembered the no conspiracy part as well.
The Clifton tape was made public when he died. Odd that General Clifton kept the tapes as a private citizen, and interesting that his copy was less edited than the presidential one at LBJ's library.
“There is a tape recording in the archives of the government which best recaptures the sound of the hours as it waited for leadership,” White wrote. “It is a recording of all the conversations in the air, monitored by the Signal Corps Midwestern center ‘Liberty,’ between Air Force One in Dallas, the Cabinet plane over the Pacific, and the Joint Chiefs’ Communications Center in Washington….On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy [emphasis added], learned the identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President’s mind turned to the duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick.”

Most folks listening to the Cliford tapes focus on the tug-of-war between Bethesda and Walter Reed.
"-Yes General Clifton?
- We do not want a helicopter for Bethesda Medical Center. We do want the ambulance and a ground return from Andrews to Walter Reed. And we want the regular post mortem that has to be done by law, under guard, performed at Walter Reed. Is that clear? Over.
- That is clear General Clifton. You want an ambulance and a ah….another limousine at Andrews and you want the regular post mortem by law done at Walter Reed."

And we're going to agree again on Burkeley. We don't know what he would've said.
but it is noteworthy that he came out and said conspiracy.
I assume his focus is related to the high back versus low neck wound because he signed the death certificate, he knows.
Yes he is 75 and memory is imperfect, however. we all have regrets. Burkley, like Landis, likely felt some regret. HSCA should have followed up, but Sprague was removed.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

So? If he’s already shot, he can’t be looking back to see what’s happening there? Or do I misunderstand your point?


Unfortunately, memory isn’t a recording machine.


Firstly, he doesn’t calmy turn around to see what’s happening. If he would have done that, he would have simply moved his right elbow above or on the backrest of his seat to facilitate the turning, but instead he keeps his arm against his body, that way restricting himself in turning backwards. Secondly, the pain in his face is no more clearly visible than it is starting at frame 224. Thirdly, in frame 295 Connally is leaning back into his wife’s lap. How or from where do you think he could have been hit in his back, near his right armpit? And fourthly, according to his wife, Connally held on to his hat until they arrived at the hospital.


Would that include the movement of the lapel of his jacket? Or the odd flipping of his hat? And why first turn forward? And what’s with the rapid lowering of his right shoulder? From frame 227 to 229 he lowers it significantly. That’s 0.22 seconds.


Even though I don't find it convincing, thanks for sharing it.

All the best,congenial manner.

Frank

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Q_ndofzbo&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4olEc4xdVB4&ab_channel=GilJesus

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c69eTiZCZs&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69H_OyVFqrM&ab_channel=GilJesus

Best regards, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Q_ndofzbo&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4olEc4xdVB4&ab_channel=GilJesus

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c69eTiZCZs&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69H_OyVFqrM&ab_channel=GilJesus

Best regards, George

Great Videos , The Audacity of the WC to think they could fool those of us with Brains and Common sense .!!. They got the Sheep tho i guess.




Gee George , Whats taking people so long to work it out ???? How on earth could anyone, given the fact the the WC was instructed to find a lone gunman 3 shot conclusion at the expense of everything else known at the time and for the next 62 years , believe a word of it !!!

Its Staggering this has gone on for this long .