JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

Then why would Oswald be planning his escape to Cuba when HE had no idea as to whether Kennedy would be visiting Dallas, nor whether he would be working in a building on the motorcade route?

You're still dodging the questions.

Why would the Conspiracy send an imposter to Mexico? The government hadn't even decided what cities JFK would be visiting, let alone the routes. Oswald hadn't applied anywhere in Dallas yet.

Why would a Conspiracy send an imposter that didn't look like the person they were impersonating/

There is, or at least of someone impersonating Oswald in Dallas.

The Alice Texas and other supposed sighting of Oswald do not occur during Oswald's Mexico trip.

Feel free to provide any evidence that Oswald was in Dallas, not Mexico, during the time that we have records that Oswald was in Mexico and that Oswald told his wife he was in Mexico.

Because the original conspiracy was to blame the communists for the assassination, but LBJ and Hoover overruled the idea.

What would Hoover gain from the JFK assassination?

How could the Conspiracy frame Oswald when they didn't even know what cities JFK was going to, let alone the parade routes?

Why would a Conspiracy that had forged evidence that Oswald had contacted both the Cuban and Soviet embassies switch to a plan to blame Oswald without doing anything to remove the evidence that he visited the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico?

Why would the Conspiracy use multiple shooters if they were trying to sell a single shooter theory? Did the hit teams not get the memo from the Conspiracy?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Why would a Conspiracy send an imposter that didn't look like the person they were impersonating/


Why would Oswald not look like himself?



The Alice Texas and other supposed sighting of Oswald do not occur during Oswald's Mexico trip.

Feel free to provide any evidence that Oswald was in Dallas, not Mexico, during the time that we have records that Oswald was in Mexico and that Oswald told his wife he was in Mexico.


An Oswald met Sylvia Odio in Dallas at a time when Oswald was supposedly either in Mexico or on his way there.



What would Hoover gain from the JFK assassination?


An extension of his tenure as Director of the FBI.



How could the Conspiracy frame Oswald when they didn't even know what cities JFK was going to, let alone the parade routes?


Same reason they had two Oswalds in different places at the same time and also had someone impersonating Oswald who was obviously physically different and could not speak Russian.



Why would a Conspiracy that had forged evidence that Oswald had contacted both the Cuban and Soviet embassies switch to a plan to blame Oswald without doing anything to remove the evidence that he visited the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico?


I don't think they could have done that.



Why would the Conspiracy use multiple shooters if they were trying to sell a single shooter theory? Did the hit teams not get the memo from the Conspiracy?


Because in order for the conspiracy to be sure of succeeding, multiple shooters were required.

[Fiver]

If Oswald 'fled the scene' it's odd nobody saw him running; in fact the taxi evidence suggests the opposite.

No one saw Oswald running or walking or crawling or playing hopscotch away from the building, but we do know

* Oswald was in the building when the shots were fired.
* Oswald's alibi about being in the domino room was a lie.
* Oswald left the building minutes after the shooting and appears to have been the only employee to have done that.

Oswald did however seem to have left his jacket at the TSBD which suggests he was keen to get somewhere. It was found in the domino room of all places- but it was not recognised as being his until a few days later. I'm not sure if it was ever established that it actually was his but surely there must have been some stuff inside the pockets which would have helped identification. It's amazing that this jacket- the one he was wearing prior to committing the crime of the century- has been airbrushed out of the narrative whereas the jacket dumped after the Tippit shooting was seen as crucial. Or maybe not. Would there not have been forensic evidence on the jacket after the wearer had fired four shots at Tippit from a revolver?

The jacket found in the domino room was identified by Marina Oswald as belonging to her husband. It wasn't "airbrushed out", unlike the Tippet shooting, there is no indication that the jacket was being worn when JFK was shot.

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had fired a gun recently.

Oswald's clothing wasn't tested - he continued to wear it.

[Fiver]

Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn’t there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street-up the street.
Mr. BALL. Toward what?
Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston.
Mr. BALL. Toward Main-down toward Main?
Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing Houston on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Normin-there were two or three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they- started across Houston Street up Elm.
I didn’t see them turn over to the right across Elm.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute-you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front
of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn’t you?
Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier-a good deal- a little while before the shooting-I believe they were the three.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I’m pretty sure there was the three of them.

(Volume 7 page 385)

Other testimony shows that Truly was mistaken. Jarman and Harmon were initially in front of the Book Depository, but they went up to the 5th floor. This is confirmed by Tom Dillard's photo, taken shortly after the third shot was fired. The men that Givens was with at Houston and elm were his friends James and Edward Shields.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had fired a gun recently.

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had not fired a rifle recently.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Other testimony shows that Truly was mistaken. Jarman and Harmon were initially in front of the Book Depository, but they went up to the 5th floor. This is confirmed by Tom Dillard's photo, taken shortly after the third shot was fired. The men that Givens was with at Houston and elm were his friends James and Edward Shields.

It does not matter much whether Truly was right or wrong about someone being missing.

The point is that he thought that three people other than Oswald were missing after the shooting and, moreover, that he did not check precisely who was and who was not missing.

And at this juncture, I politely draw your attention to the fact that you have never produced any evidence that a roll-call took place - the roll-call which, according to the Warren Commission, proved that Oswald was the only employee missing.

[Fiver]

Well, if you want to talk about truncation, how about what Brennan said about the shooter being in a standing position, even though there is photographic evidence that the window was half open?

Are these men standing? Or sitting?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0291a.htm

The answer, as cobalt shows in post #2344, is that they are crouching.

But from below, it certainly could look like they are standing.

If Brennan was describing Oswald, he overestimated his age by about eight years, his weight by nearly three stone, and got the colour of his shirt completely wrong.

You say those are reasonable mistakes.

I say they are not and that Brennan would have been useless as a prosecution witness.

Oswald wasn't identified by his shirt. Howard Brennan saw a white man of Oswald's approximate height and build firing from the sniper's nest. Oswald's hairline make the age estimate completely reasonable.

And from what I understand, a stone is 14 pounds. For Brennan's weight estimate to be off by 3 stone would have meant Oswald weighed 123 pounds.

I am willing to be corrected about Tippit, but I have not read that he had a conversation about the description of the alleged assassin shortly before he was shot.

I have read that the last radio contact he had was at 12.54 p.m., when he was instructed to be at large.

That was an error on my part.

There is, I suggest, no evidence that suggests that Tippit thought the man he approached was the assassin of the President.

We have the description of JFK's killer given by the police dispatcher - "White male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five ten, weighs one sixty-five, is all the information."

We have the description given by Officer Walker of Tippet's killer - "He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, black hair, slender, wearing white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks."

Both descriptions are second hand, but they are similar to each other and to Oswald.

We cannot know what Tippet was thinking, but Tippet got out of his car, approached the man with his hand on the butt of his gun, and had drawn the gun before he was killed. That shows that Tippet thought the man was potential danger, which only makes sense if he thought the man might be JFK's murderer.

[cobalt]

'* Oswald's alibi about being in the domino room was a lie'

On the contrary it is a very decent alibi indeed, since it is indirectly supported by the statements made by Norman and Jarman. Not the statements drawn out by the WC to a strawman alibi about Oswald having lunch with them: the WC realised the problem with Oswald's alibi and sought to undermine it by referring to Fritz's 'notes.'

Oswald's alibi is as follows so far as we can gather.
12 00: Seen on first floor by both Shelley (or Truly?) and Piper, the janitor. He actually spoke to Piper.

12.15 Seen in either lunch room or domino room by Ms Arnold. This was only a passing glimpse- but far stronger than the Brennan type IDs since she actually knew Oswald by sight.

12.23 Oswald sees Norman and Jarman passing door of domino room as confirmed in their statements. The time can be established due to a police radio message they heard outside and their subsequent meeting up with Bonnie Ray Williams. (This also means Williams must have left the 6th floor after 12.23 since he moved to the 5th floor after hearing them there.)

Given that the assassin had to arrange a sniper's nest, assemble the rifle and prepare a shooting angle before the expected time of the parade at 12.25, this timeline removes Oswald from the scene of the crime.

[Fiver]

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had not fired a rifle recently.

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had fired a gun recently. The test had no way of telling if that gun was a rifle or a pistol.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald's hands were tested and it was shown that he had fired a gun recently. The test had no way of telling if that gun was a rifle or a pistol.

The test I am referring to was for powder residue on his cheek and the result was negative.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Are these men standing? Or sitting?


But from below, it certainly could look like they are standing.


But Brennan didn't say it only looked like the shooter was standing!



Oswald wasn't identified by his shirt. Howard Brennan saw a white man of Oswald's approximate height and build firing from the sniper's nest. Oswald's hairline make the age estimate completely reasonable.


Is that a supposition or a fact?



And from what I understand, a stone is 14 pounds. For Brennan's weight estimate to be off by 3 stone would have meant Oswald weighed 123 pounds.


Following his arrest, Oswald's weight was recorded as 135 lbs.

Brennan's estimate was up to 175 lbs.

The difference is nearly three stone.



We have the description given by Officer Walker of Tippet's killer - "He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, black hair, slender, wearing white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks."

Both descriptions are second hand, but they are similar to each other and to Oswald.



Hardly!

Oswald did not even own a white jacket - and his shirt could not have been mistaken for a jacket as both a shirt and jacket were mentioned.

Moreover, Oswald did not have black hair.

This is the same Oswald who you have claimed had hair that was so light in colour that it could have been described by witnesses in Mexico as blond.



We cannot know what Tippet was thinking, but Tippet got out of his car, approached the man with his hand on the butt of his gun, and had drawn the gun before he was killed. That shows that Tippet thought the man was potential danger, which only makes sense if he thought the man might be JFK's murderer.


Well, that really is an assumption - is it not?

We know that Tippit stopped a car about a quarter of an hour before he was shot and looked at the space between the back seat and front seat of it.

Does that make sense only if he was looking for the assassin of President Kennedy?

[Fiver]

'* Oswald's alibi about being in the domino room was a lie'

On the contrary it is a very decent alibi indeed, since it is indirectly supported by the statements made by Norman and Jarman. Not the statements drawn out by the WC to a strawman alibi about Oswald having lunch with them: the WC realised the problem with Oswald's alibi and sought to undermine it by referring to Fritz's 'notes.'

Oswald's alibi is as follows so far as we can gather.
12 00: Seen on first floor by both Shelley (or Truly?) and Piper, the janitor. He actually spoke to Piper.

Neither Shelly nor Truly said they saw Oswald on the first floor at 12pm.

Eddie Piper did say "Yesterday, at 12:00 noon this fellow Lee says to me "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch."

He did not eat lunch with Oswald.

12.15 Seen in either lunch room or domino room by Ms Arnold. This was only a passing glimpse- but far stronger than the Brennan type IDs since she actually knew Oswald by sight.

Arnold did say that in 1978. It contradicts earlier statements that Arnold made, as well as the statements of other women who were with her on the second floor at 12:15.

"Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM."

If this fleeting glimpse was Oswald, it gives him 15 to 18 minutes to take the elevator upstairs to the 6th floor and set up the sniper's nest.

12.23 Oswald sees Norman and Jarman passing door of domino room as confirmed in their statements. The time can be established due to a police radio message they heard outside and their subsequent meeting up with Bonnie Ray Williams. (This also means Williams must have left the 6th floor after 12.23 since he moved to the 5th floor after hearing them there.)

Given that the assassin had to arrange a sniper's nest, assemble the rifle and prepare a shooting angle before the expected time of the parade at 12.25, this timeline removes Oswald from the scene of the crime.

Oswald did not claim to have seen Norman and Jarman pass the door of the domino room, he claimed to have lunch with them in the domino room. Oswald's claim would be to have seen Norman and Jarman some time between 11:55 and 12:10, not some time after 12:23 pm. Oswald's claim to be in the domino room is contradicted by the testimony of Norman, Jarman,West, Acre, Dougherty, and Givens.

Oswald not only had no alibi, the alibi he asserted was a lie.

[cobalt]

'If this fleeting glimpse was Oswald, it gives him 15 to 18 minutes to take the elevator upstairs to the 6th floor and set up the sniper's nest'
Not really. According to TSBD workers the parade was expected to pass by some time after 12.00. That makes Oswald a very tardy assassin. And since Bonnie Ray Williams (according to his, Norman's and Jarman's testimony) must have been on the 6th floor until 12.25 then Oswald would have to have brushed past him and his chicken bones and juice bottle.

'Oswald did not claim to have seen Norman and Jarman pass the door of the domino room, he claimed to have lunch with them in the domino room.'
It depends what source you take. Fritz did claim this in his 'notes' but there were different versions supplied by the FBI and CIA persons who sat in on interview. One of these noted (and his notes were contemporaneous unlike Fritz's) that Oswald had merely seen them pass by or pass through the domino room, a far more likely version since Oswald had nothing to gain by supplying an outright lie. That still leaves the question of how Oswald knew that they had indeed been in that area at 12.23 since he had no contact with them thereafter. For all he knew they were either outside watching the parade or upstairs looking out of a window.

Norman was quite careful to say that he 'did not recall' seeing Oswald; in fact amongst his various statements he claims that there was probably someone else in the domino room when he sat there but was not sure who.

[cobalt]

Fritz’s scribbled contemporary notes, discovered after his death, may be more accurate. Fritz reports that Oswald "saw two negroes come in one Jr. - & short negro" and says nothing about Oswald's claiming to have had lunch with these men. [it seems that Norman went by the nicknames of ‘Hank’ and ‘Shorty.’]

Shelley saw Oswald shortly before noon. Instead of arranging an assassination, Oswald was going about his usual work routine. He was not on the 5^th floor per the testimony of Givens since Shelley had led the floor laying crew off to lunch.The 12-7-63 Secret Service report on Oswald's co-workers describes an interview of William Shelley, Oswald’s direct boss. It relates: "Mr. Shelley last saw Oswald at about 11:50 A.M., at which time Oswald was working at his normal duties on the first floor."

[GBinOz]

Hi PI,

OK, so you believe in at least 6 shots and multiple gunman and you have no clear idea of the locations of the shooters.

So, what you’re proposing, at least in part, seems to be (not necessarily in chronological order) – and please correct me if I’m wrong about any of them:

1. Kennedy is shot in the back from behind at the level of thoracic vertebra 3, supposedly with a high speed bullet that doesn’t enter his body very profoundly and at an angle of 45 to 60 degrees or in the best case at an angle of 30 to 45 degrees;
2. Kennedy is shot in the throat from the front, also supposedly with a high speed bullet that apparently doesn’t exit either;
3. Connally is shot in the back, close to the right armpit, the bullet exiting just below the nipple line, then enters and exits the wrist and then enters the left thigh;
4. Kennedy is hit in the back of the head;
5. Kennedy is hit in the right temple, presumably from the grassy knoll;

The first thing to say is that Kennedy wasn’t hit, yet, when he disappeared behind the Stemmons Freeway sign at Zapruder frame 205, but he was when he reappeared at Z225. Then, Connally, according to his own words, was hit around frames Z231 to 234.

So, between Z205 and 225 Kennedy was hit in the back and the throat by 2 separate bullets and around Z231-234 Connally was also hit in the back by, yet, another separate bullet.

Below questions that I’d have regarding 4 or the 5 points above.
With regards to 1:

• How/from where could a bullet have entered the president’s back at an angle of 30 to 45 degrees, let alone 45 to 60?
• How could a high velocity bullet not enter into his body beyond the length of a little finger?

With regards to 2:

• A shot from the front hitting the president in the throat would have to have come from the direction of the south end of the triple overpass or the south grassy knoll; how come nobody on or near the overpass heard or saw anything from that end? Officer Foster was only some 40 yards away from that end and, among others, Tague and Doland were only some 20 yards away. How can it be that Tague only heard sounds to his left?

With regards to 3:

• The Zapruder film shows that Connally at frame 223 he’s turned somewhat to his right and between frames 224 and 229 he’s lowering his right shoulder, whilst turning back to his left and moving his hat up and down and, from frame 229 onwards, is holding his hat almost at shoulder level; seen from above the bullet travelled through Connally’s upper body slightly from right to left, while his wrist was right in front of his shoulder or even slightly right of it; so, how can a bullet enter the back close to his armpit, then exit, at a somewhat lower point, below his right nipple and then go on to hit him in the wrist?

With regards to 5:

• How could an entering bullet cause the skull to explode upon impact? It has no precedent. Normally, an entry wound is small and an exit wound (much) bigger.
• Where is this bullet supposed to have exited?

Regards,
Frank

Hi Frank,

While your post was directed to PI, I'd like to take the liberty of adding some comments.

I would suggest that you should give some consideration to the high possibility that suppressed (silenced) weapons were also being used, and that co-ordinated fire was being employed (yellow paint on kerb, signals from umbrella man and/or his friend with the radio, a spotter with a stop watch).

Back in the 1960's my brother owned a French made Unique semi-auto rifle which came from the factory threaded for a silencer. Using .22 subsonic rimfire ammunition with a silencer the only sound was the click of the auto-loading mechanism. The rifle shot excellent groups out to 100 yards plus.

There were also .22 centrefire rifles available in the 1960's, the .222 and the legendary 220 Swift (4000 fps), which could be loaded down to under 1100fps for use with a silencer. Remington also made the .221 Fireball centrefire cartridge for their single shot bolt action pistol, the XP-100.

There were .30 calibre cases found on the rooves of the Records building and the Dal-Tex in the years after the assassination. The M1 .30 calibre carbine and the Springfield 30.06 both featured factory produced silenced models. Projectiles could be fired through a different calibre rifle, such as the Carcano 6.5, into wadding and then reloaded and fired through the silenced .30 calibre using a sabot. The projectile would retain the rifling characteristics of the original rifle, and appear to have been fired only through the original rifle. If loaded below 1100fps they would be silent, but reduced in power.

With regards to 1:

• How/from where could a bullet have entered the president’s back at an angle of 30 to 45 degrees, let alone 45 to 60?
• How could a high velocity bullet not enter into his body beyond the length of a little finger?

As previously discussed, I believe Humes would have been measuring from Kennedy's back rather than try to estimate the trajectory of the projectile. I think this shot was a loaded down low velocity shot from the Dal-Tex or the Records Building.

With regards to 2:

• A shot from the front hitting the president in the throat would have to have come from the direction of the south end of the triple overpass or the south grassy knoll; how come nobody on or near the overpass heard or saw anything from that end? Officer Foster was only some 40 yards away from that end and, among others, Tague and Doland were only some 20 yards away. How can it be that Tague only heard sounds to his left?

A shot from the south end of the overpass would line up with the hole in the windscreen. This could have been a silenced sub-sonic .22 rimfire which would not have been heard by anyone. The shot could have been made from behind an overpass pillar or from the top of the knoll and an escape made through the car park behind the Post Office. Alternatively, if the two witnesses and the Ford manager who said the hole in the wind screen was an outside to inside bullet hole are to be ignored, this shot could also have been made from the "Black Dog" position, or from the picket fence, as shown in this Willis photograph. As can be seen, Kennedy is about to emerge from behind the sign (in relation to Zapruder), and there is a clear shot available.



With regards to 5:

• How could an entering bullet cause the skull to explode upon impact? It has no precedent. Normally, an entry wound is small and an exit wound (much) bigger.
• Where is this bullet supposed to have exited?

The frangible bullets, particularly the mercury projectiles do in fact explode creating a large exit wound. David Mantik stated that there was amorphous debris shown in the X-rays that looked more like liquid than metal. These projectiles do not exit in large pieces like a FMJ. They fragment into many tiny pieces.



As always, Just My Opinion at this time, and subject to future alteration in the light of new evidence.

Best regards,
George