Cutting Point

[MrBarnett]

Christer,

Re Tabram, doesn’t Emma Smith fit just as well - perhaps even more so?

Time, location, type - and an undeniable sexual element.


Gary

[Fisherman]

Christer,

Re Tabram, doesn’t Emma Smith fit just as well - perhaps even more so?

Time, location, type - and an undeniable sexual element.


Gary

In the book, I write that I sort away a number of possible victims, not on account of how they seem not to fit but instead because they do not further strengthen the case I am making. Smith is just such a victim, where a number of factors are in line with belonging to the tally. I point out that much as we don´t know who the killer was, the proven presence of a killer who preyed on women of the seemingly same class urges us to favour him as the likeliest killer. The facts that Smith was not cut or stabbed plus that she testified to having been assaulted by a gang detracts from her overall viability to a significant degree.
Of course, it can be reasoned that Tabram does perhaps not technically strengthen the case either, but as I said before, she looks to me like a possible bridge in between the two series, and so I added her. To me, she looks like a safer bid than Smith, and I believe most people would agree on that score.

[caz]

Hi Fish,

When I consider the two murders committed by killer and serial rapist, Robert Napper - that of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in 1992, and that of Samantha Bisset in 1993, in her own flat - there are some interesting similarities with the murders of Martha Tabram and Mary Kelly, so I do feel it's certainly plausible that the ripper killed them both. Such killers are not robots and they thrive on the violence they inflict. They can also have mood swings, just like anyone else, which can be influenced by drink or drugs, so I see no objection to one or more of the ripper's victims being attacked on the spur of the moment, regardless of whether he had the right weapon on him or the opportunity to mutilate them where they dropped. No separate motive would have been needed for someone who grew up knife happy, and I see no reason why the ripper would have stayed his hand and spared a prospective victim, if he could 'only' do her limited damage in the circumstances.

I have seen arguments in the past that a flasher doesn't become a killer, but in light of recent events that is likely to be a very wrong and very dangerous opinion to hold.

Good luck with the book!

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Hi Fish,

When I consider the two murders committed by killer and serial rapist, Robert Napper - that of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in 1992, and that of Samantha Bisset in 1993, in her own flat - there are some interesting similarities with the murders of Martha Tabram and Mary Kelly, so I do feel it's certainly plausible that the ripper killed them both. Such killers are not robots and they thrive on the violence they inflict. They can also have mood swings, just like anyone else, which can be influenced by drink or drugs, so I see no objection to one or more of the ripper's victims being attacked on the spur of the moment, regardless of whether he had the right weapon on him or the opportunity to mutilate them where they dropped. No separate motive would have been needed for someone who grew up knife happy, and I see no reason why the ripper would have stayed his hand and spared a prospective victim, if he could 'only' do her limited damage in the circumstances.

I have seen arguments in the past that a flasher doesn't become a killer, but in light of recent events that is likely to be a very wrong and very dangerous opinion to hold.

Good luck with the book!

Love,

Caz
X

might have happened with stride too

[caz]

Indeed so, Abby. I can see no valid, evidential or psychological reason why the ripper could/would not have murdered Stride.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

When I consider the two murders committed by killer and serial rapist, Robert Napper - that of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in 1992, and that of Samantha Bisset in 1993, in her own flat - there are some interesting similarities with the murders of Martha Tabram and Mary Kelly, so I do feel it's certainly plausible that the ripper killed them both. Such killers are not robots and they thrive on the violence they inflict. They can also have mood swings, just like anyone else, which can be influenced by drink or drugs, so I see no objection to one or more of the ripper's victims being attacked on the spur of the moment, regardless of whether he had the right weapon on him or the opportunity to mutilate them where they dropped. No separate motive would have been needed for someone who grew up knife happy, and I see no reason why the ripper would have stayed his hand and spared a prospective victim, if he could 'only' do her limited damage in the circumstances.

I have seen arguments in the past that a flasher doesn't become a killer, but in light of recent events that is likely to be a very wrong and very dangerous opinion to hold.

Good luck with the book!

Love,

Caz
X

Many thanks, Caz! I agree with both you and Gary, actually - these are points that do need to be brought up, but they are no certain gamechangers.

[MrBarnett]

And I agree with Fish and Caz, there’s nothing totally implausible about the torso killer who had operated in west London a generation earlier also being Tabram’s attacker acting perhaps from a different impulse and using different weapons/tools.


But the Smith attack strikes me as being much closer to Tabram than the ‘73 torso case is. I can’t see the gang of East End roughs who probably attacked Smith being responsible for the ‘73 attack, but it would be no great stretch to imagine them committing the George Yard crime. Less of a stretch, I feel, than that the mature skilled west London killer of 1873 was the culprit.

[caz]

Hi Gary,

I'm always struck by just how close, geographically, Smith and Tabram were when they were attacked - not much more than a stone's throw - and the fact that the attacks both took place on Bank Holidays. I'm not sure there had been much publicity about the Smith outrage when Tabram was murdered, although anyone with an ear to the ground locally would no doubt have heard about it. My feeling is that the two were either connected in some way, or Tabram's killer got off on what happened to Smith and wanted a piece of the action.

It's of course possible that Smith claimed it was a gang, rather than let it be thought she had solicited a lone stranger, who had treated her so appallingly. I see the ripper as a lone wolf, so I consider it unlikely that he could have been the ringleader of a gang attack on Smith.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

And I agree with Fish and Caz, there’s nothing totally implausible about the torso killer who had operated in west London a generation earlier also being Tabram’s attacker acting perhaps from a different impulse and using different weapons/tools.


But the Smith attack strikes me as being much closer to Tabram than the ‘73 torso case is. I can’t see the gang of East End roughs who probably attacked Smith being responsible for the ‘73 attack, but it would be no great stretch to imagine them committing the George Yard crime. Less of a stretch, I feel, than that the mature skilled west London killer of 1873 was the culprit.

The link between the 1873 victim and the Ripper murders is the cut away face. Mary Kellys murder produced something that was extremely alike the anatmical Venuses, plucked out organs around the body, pillow under the head and all. And remember that a Pall Mall Gazette journalist described her face as looking like the anatomical models that could be seen in medical cliniques. The abdominal wall had been removed and the Venuses had an abdomen that could be lifted away, like a lid.

The 1873 victim had her face meticulously cut away in one piece. Once again, this produces a lid to lift off.

There were no other examples to be seen anywhere, where the abdomen and the face could be lifted away from a human body. There were no other such lids on dispaly in the waz museums, the abdomen and the face were the ones on display.

Either it is one more of those coincidences that one victim in each series involved inclusions that were eerily reminiscent of the wax exhibitions, or we are dealing with the same killer. The chances of two killers separately chancing upon one lid each in the Kelly murder and the 1873 murder are slim indeed if you ask me.

[Fisherman]

Hi Gary,

I'm always struck by just how close, geographically, Smith and Tabram were when they were attacked - not much more than a stone's throw - and the fact that the attacks both took place on Bank Holidays. I'm not sure there had been much publicity about the Smith outrage when Tabram was murdered, although anyone with an ear to the ground locally would no doubt have heard about it. My feeling is that the two were either connected in some way, or Tabram's killer got off on what happened to Smith and wanted a piece of the action.

It's of course possible that Smith claimed it was a gang, rather than let it be thought she had solicited a lone stranger, who had treated her so appallingly. I see the ripper as a lone wolf, so I consider it unlikely that he could have been the ringleader of a gang attack on Smith.

Love,

Caz
X

I couldn´t agree more - we are definitely dealing with a lone wolf. Two killers engaging in eviscerations in tandem would be extremely unexpected.
There are examples of tandem killers, like Ng/Lake, Bianchi/Buono and Bittaker/Norris, but these are always examples of two men who have decided to facilitate raping and torturing their victims by helping each other out. In a sense, the fact that they also killed them seems to be part of a reasoning that they would be given the maximum sentence if they were caught, and so doing away with the victims may be more of a precaution than an urge.
That is very, very different from the Ripper murders.

[Abby Normal]

im much less than inclined to think the ripper/torsoman had anything to with the smith attack. to me thats a classic gang/ gang rape attack. post mortem non torture type serial killers always work alone and theres no evidence ripper/torsoman were into torture. most importantly the smith attack wasnt a knife attack-and the ripper was all about the knife.

for pre tabram and also a possible bridege crime i would go with millwood.

[Fisherman]

im much less than inclined to think the ripper/torsoman had anything to with the smith attack. to me thats a classic gang/ gang rape attack. post mortem non torture type serial killers always work alone and theres no evidence ripper/torsoman were into torture. most importantly the smith attack wasnt a knife attack-and the ripper was all about the knife.

for pre tabram and also a possible bridege crime i would go with millwood.

Personally, I tend to rule out Milwood and Wilson. They are both attacks that look a bit confused and haphazard, and to me, Tabram fills the confused/haphazard account. I can see one such attack taking place and in retrospect helping the killer to opt for adding street murders to his agenda, but I have a hard time allowing for more such attacks - the 1873 torso murder as well as the Rainham deed were earlier, and they suggest a very controlled killer. To reason that such a killer would move on to the kind of attacks that Milwood and Wilson suffered is less credible, at least in my view.

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I tend to rule out Milwood and Wilson. They are both attacks that look a bit confused and haphazard, and to me, Tabram fills the confused/haphazard account. I can see one such attack taking place and in retrospect helping the killer to opt for adding street murders to his agenda, but I have a hard time allowing for more such attacks - the 1873 torso murder as well as the Rainham deed were earlier, and they suggest a very controlled killer. To reason that such a killer would move on to the kind of attacks that Milwood and Wilson suffered is less credible, at least in my view.

i just think if your going to pick between smith and millwood, millwood is much better than smith for the ripper or torsoripper.no big wup

[Fisherman]

i just think if your going to pick between smith and millwood, millwood is much better than smith for the ripper or torsoripper.no big wup

Given that particular choice, yes I agree. And I take care not to say that Milwood, Wilson and Tabram could not have been Ripper deeds even when mixing the torso deeds in. There can be something we do not know about allowing for it, and overall, as I keep saying, when there is a knife-wielding man around, he has to be in the mix of suspects for any knife deeds that occur.

We all have our respective pictures of what happened and we may all be wrong in many respects.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Finally received my hardback copy, took a while. Looks great I have to say, a quality print run.

(Christer, any chance you can sign my first edition? Not for myself, it's just that I'd like to sell it to Christian for an exorbitant amount. I'll split the profit 50:50, he'll pay anything. Keep it to ourselves though, we don't want him thinking he's a mug.)