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Have a read of this Barnflatwyngarde
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Oh, look - they disagree. Nothing like the Ripper hunt, therefore...Originally posted by Observer View PostComment
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Is there any murder mystery out there Fisherman in which devotees don't tear lumps out of each other? Graysmith's book on the Zodiac, in my opinion, is not a good grounding for those just starting out to study the Zodiac Killer mystery. You being an author, must realise if you're setting out try and convince people whether X or Y committed a series of murders, sticking to the known facts is paramount.Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
Apologies for derailing the thread ......againComment
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hey obsOriginally posted by Observer View Post
were getting off topic. but thanks for posting this. ill take a look at it when i have more time. if you want to continue with zodiac i suugest we open a new thread. another fascinating case.
fyi i belong to this zodiac forum. lots of good discussion.
Last edited by Abby Normal; 02-28-2021, 03:19 PM."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. AbberlineComment
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Hi AN, no problemOriginally posted by Abby Normal View Post
Yes we're certainly off topic. Just a few words though to set a couple of things straight. I believe it was a little bit remiss of me to mention Tom Voigt's site, and then send a link to Mr Butterfield's site, the truth is I don't believe those two gentlemen, (putting it mildly) see eye to eye. I believe the general consensus though among devotees of the Zodiac Killer mystery are of an opinion that Graysmith's book is somewhat flawed.
Yes, I'm aware of the site you refer to, I've followed it for some time now. There doesn't seem to be much happening in their forum of late thoughComment
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Hi Observer, thanks for this.Originally posted by Observer View Post
Yeah I'm familiar with the site, and I greatly admire his forensic dismantling of Graysmith's mistakes, and downright inventions.
It just seems to me a real pity that no respected, sober minded and analytical author like Begg, Sugden, Whittington-Egan, to name but 3,
has taken on this case while many of the individuals and witnesses surrounding the case are still alive.
The more I read about the Zodiac case the more it seems that a solution just continues drifting slowly away into the fog.Comment
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Apologies for drifting off thread.
I promise not to do it again, until I do it again!
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Hi BFWOriginally posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post
Yes it's quite a tour de force. I see your point regarding the three authors you mention, Voigt, and his ilk have it all sewn up though. Believe me their knowledge on the case is rather impressive. It's a fascinating case, unfortunately, witnesses, Law Enforcement officers, and indeed the victims who survived are sliding into old age. I believe it's unsure just how much LE has with regard to DNA, but, even if they have a smidgen of DNA then there's still hope that the culprit will be named.
More apologies for drifting off topicLast edited by Observer; 02-28-2021, 05:16 PM.Comment
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hey guys just started a new thread on zodiac in other mysteries section. lets move it thereOriginally posted by Observer View Post"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. AbberlineComment
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On what he bases his theories on?...damn right it was no mean feat.Originally posted by drstrange169 View PostComment
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Allright. Just finished reading it again.
again congrats fish-i think you did a great job and its a good read!
I think the geographical arguments for lech being not only the ripper but also the torsokiller are very strong.
The "bridging the Gap" sections are great-especially the similarities in mutilations pointed out between the two series. And the inspiration in the anatomical venus models and museum is particularily fascinating, and grounded by giving real life examples of SKs who were known to visit them.
I like the emphasis and explanation on pinchin as a culmination of a combination of the series.
Ma lechs place in all this, and as possible bolt hole, in explaining some things is very interesting.
The several new and or not generally known tidbits fish throws in there are intriguing, but ill leave specifics of those to the reader.go get the book.
The general flow of the book, and conciseness of the arguments and how fish builds the case not only for lechmere but a combined torsoripper was well done.
And I now know why fish thinks the arms were were sawn off at the shoulder instead of disarticulated.; )
a few (very minor)quibbles- I would have emphasized the fact that lech was seen hovering near a freshly killed victim before raising any kind of alarm alot more.in the history of serial murder i dont beleive there has ever been an innocent "witness" that was seen in this type of situation-the chances alone! This is the biggest factor for me in pointing to lechmeres guilt. I would have really hammered this home more-but thats just me.
I would have like to see more and more detail on the similarity between the damage on tottenham head face and eddowes face. I think there might have been two sets of twins Fish!
Mackenzie, who I think is almost certainly a ripper victim (and therefore a torsoripper victim) is left out.
Not so much a quibble, but a question(and maybe a suggestion) fish:
you emphasize pinchin street having special sig for lech re the pinchin torso, and also other reasons for dumping where he did-but not sure if you mentioned the following or i just missed it- perhaps he dumped one of the torsos in the basement of Scotland Yard because stepdad lech was a copper? food for thought.
There used to be a time you would be ridiculed for even suggesting the ripper and torsoman could be the same man. no more.
Fishes book goes a long way to dispelling that way of thinking, no matter what you think of Lech as a suspect and fish has done a great job IMHO in making a strong argument for both.
Highly recommended and fascinating book!
Last edited by Abby Normal; 03-04-2021, 07:37 PM."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. AbberlineComment
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Wow it’s been a while since I was here! I look forward to reading this. Congrats Fisherman!Comment
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Since there has been no fistfighting about Cutting Point so far, I thought I would take the opportunity to thank those who have said many nice things about it. Tom, Herlock, Gary, Abby, many thanks for your kind words about the book!
A few remarks have been made about matters that two of you would have liked to see but been deprived of, and I may as well comment on that too.
Gary, you would have liked to see more about Ma Lechmere and her potential role in the business, plus I believe you before the book came out expressed a wish to see the psychology commented upon. Of course, these are connected matters.
One of my aims with the book was to keep it simple, and to write not so much for ripperologists as for a broader audience, the way journalists normally do. Another aim of mine was to concentrate on making as clear and concise as possible a case for Lechmere being the combined killer - and accordingly leave a lot of material aside that has no real bearing on that issue, things that neither detract from nor add to the case. To that end, I did not want to submerge myself to deepy into the psychology. I find that generally speaking, psychology has done much less to explain the case than to muddle it. And that spans over the whole spectre of time. A medico like Hebbert was very skilled in his work and was able to clarify in a very exact manner how the damage done to the torso victims looked and how it would have come about. But when he enters the realms of psychology, everything goes horribly wrong. It is, I find, the exact same today - people lock themselves into positions, based on their convictions about how psychology would have ruled what the killer did or not. "He would have run, because my take on psychology tells me so". "He would not kill en route to work becasue psychologically, that does not sit well with me". "The Ripper and the Torso killer were very different men, psychologically speaking". And so on.
Psychology, I feel, will never help us solve the case. Only factual matters can do that. And so, I base my case on factual matters and avoid most of the psychological reasoning, although I have a chapter discussing these matters - with a statement acknowledging that my own take on the psychology may be totally wrong.
This is why I never ventured into the finer points of motherhood, dominance, horsecutting and stepfathers versus stepsons. It is a field abundant in interesting implications but devoid of substance when it comes to factually proveable points.
Abby, you would have liked for me to hammer home the matter that Lechmere was found close to the body without having raised the alarm, the matter that the Tottenham torso and Eddowes seemingly bore resemblances and the detail that Lechmere had a police stepfather, which is interesting in light of how a torso was found in the New Scotland Yard building.
My answer to Gary answers that last point of yours, I believe. As for the commonalities between the Tottenham torso and Eddowes, I briefly mention it in the chapter about the victims. The reason that I did not press it further is that I chose what I think is by far the best pair (Chapman/Jackson) when it comes to pointing to similarities. Going deep into Eddowes/Tottenham torso comparisons would not only be based on less clear material (the Tottenham material is not very clear in many ways), and it would also represent a less good case and so overall, I think it would take away from the clarity of the case I chose. The clearer, the better! As for raising the alarm, that point has been made before and it generally results in how people say that Lechmere DID raise the alarm by contacting Paul and seeking out a PC. This is why I left that point out - it is to a degree unclear.
I was very happy about your statement that the points I make do n ot require any leaps of faith. I strived to get there in as high a degree as possible, and so I liked that passage of yours very much, Abby!
I am looking forward to a discussion about the book - I cannot imagine that everybody is in agreement with me about everything I say in the book - and I will likely be starting threads relating to various parts of my presentation. One of them will in all probability be called "Framing Charles" and another "Every minute counts".
Last edited by Fisherman; 03-09-2021, 07:22 AM.Comment
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