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Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? by Drew Gray and Andrew Wise

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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Last night I finished reading Jack and the Thames Torso Murders (from my local library) Is Hardiman a realistic candidate? No. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Thereís not a shred to connect him to the case. Gray has simply plucked out a person that was drawing breath at the time and then used more leaps the Jonathan Edwards to shoehorn him into place. You could get backache trying to follow his twisted logic. Iím sorry but this isnít an honest book. I struggle to believe that the author actually believes any of it.

    Hardiman sits very near to the bottom of the pile of ripper candidates.

    The field is still open for a detailed, honest appraisal of the Torso Murders as Gray barely attempted to convince that Jack and the TK were one and the same.

    Come on Fish and Debra.....a joint venture maybe?

    such a shame as i had high hopes for this one especially as hes supposed to be an academic.
    been hoping for years debra would write tje definitive book on the torsos.
    if fish wrote a book on lech and or the torsos id buy it.
    id buy any book on the subject by jerry dunlop also.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post


      such a shame as i had high hopes for this one especially as hes supposed to be an academic.
      been hoping for years debra would write tje definitive book on the torsos.
      if fish wrote a book on lech and or the torsos id buy it.
      id buy any book on the subject by jerry dunlop also.
      I just wish people would stop plucking suspects out of thin air then trying to connect them to the murders by the most tenuous of links. The idea of simply trying to name someone as the right type of person even though thereís just nothing there. Thereís not even a hint of a smidgeon of a scintilla of a suspicion against Hardiman. Weíre getting to the whoís next stage....Richardson, Davis, Lawende? Why not try the doctors? Llewelyn or Phillips? Someoneís done Bachert so why not Lusk?

      Rant over Abby.
      Regards

      Herlock






      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        I just wish people would stop plucking suspects out of thin air then trying to connect them to the murders by the most tenuous of links. The idea of simply trying to name someone as the right type of person even though thereís just nothing there. Thereís not even a hint of a smidgeon of a scintilla of a suspicion against Hardiman. Weíre getting to the whoís next stage....Richardson, Davis, Lawende? Why not try the doctors? Llewelyn or Phillips? Someoneís done Bachert so why not Lusk?

        Rant over Abby.
        rant away! and I agree, although Richardson has always been a valid person of interest to me.
        to me if your going to do an after the fact exercise in fitting up persons of interest they need to have some connection to the case-whether that be police suspicion, or physical proximity to a victim near TOD as well as something not quite right about their behavior or statements.

        for the life of me I cant really understand any traction candidates like Levy, maybrick, Feigenbaum, and the like get.

        and I know im on the minority on the jack and torsoman being the same man (probably- im at about 70%) but Jerrys man Wildbore, the WH worker ticks quite a few of the boxes. and Im intrigued by him. as I mentioned- I would love any book about this should jerry decide to go for it. hes found a lot of interesting anomalies and would love to see his whole theory with all the research hes done laid out in one place.

        Im of pretty firm belief the killers name is one weve heard before in connection to the case.
        Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-15-2019, 02:04 PM.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • a respectably dressed man, about 35 years of age, was seen to get over from the hoarding in Cannon Row, and to walk quietly away, and that he was not followed, or the police informed of the matter, because no importance was attached to the matter at the time.
          This was almost definitely the Torso killer.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

            This was almost definitely the Torso killer.
            were did you get that quote from?
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

              were did you get that quote from?
              Daily News, 5 Oct 1888

              The officers who are making inquiries with respect to the shocking discovery made at the new police offices at Westminster have received information that on Saturday afternoon, at twenty minutes past five, a respectably dressed man, about 35 years of age, was seen to get over from the hoarding in Cannon row, and to walk quietly away, and that he was not followed, or the police informed of the matter, because no importance was attached to the matter at the time. The police have forwarded a description of this man to all police stations, with a view, if possible, of tracing him. Inquiries are also being made for the purpose of ascertaining whether any person on Saturday afternoon after the workmen had left the building was seen to get over the hoarding with any bundle. Yesterday morning the work of carefully examining the vaults where the body was found was diligently proceeded with by a number of detectives. There is a well in the vaults, and this has yet to be searched. The police are firmly of opinion that the individual who conveyed the body into the vaults was intimately acquainted with the formation of the building.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                Daily News, 5 Oct 1888

                The officers who are making inquiries with respect to the shocking discovery made at the new police offices at Westminster have received information that on Saturday afternoon, at twenty minutes past five, a respectably dressed man, about 35 years of age, was seen to get over from the hoarding in Cannon row, and to walk quietly away, and that he was not followed, or the police informed of the matter, because no importance was attached to the matter at the time. The police have forwarded a description of this man to all police stations, with a view, if possible, of tracing him. Inquiries are also being made for the purpose of ascertaining whether any person on Saturday afternoon after the workmen had left the building was seen to get over the hoarding with any bundle. Yesterday morning the work of carefully examining the vaults where the body was found was diligently proceeded with by a number of detectives. There is a well in the vaults, and this has yet to be searched. The police are firmly of opinion that the individual who conveyed the body into the vaults was intimately acquainted with the formation of the building.
                Thanks Harry

                Wildbore!
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  Thanks Harry

                  Wildbore!
                  Wilbore intrigues me, too, Abbey. He has an interesting back story with connections to Peterborough and Leicester which matches Alice McKenzie.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                    Wilbore intrigues me, too, Abbey. He has an interesting back story with connections to Peterborough and Leicester which matches Alice McKenzie.
                    yup thanks gary
                    I think Jerry has also shown that his route/home is right near where some of the torsos were found.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      rant away! and I agree, although Richardson has always been a valid person of interest to me.
                      to me if your going to do an after the fact exercise in fitting up persons of interest they need to have some connection to the case-whether that be police suspicion, or physical proximity to a victim near TOD as well as something not quite right about their behavior or statements.

                      for the life of me I cant really understand any traction candidates like Levy, maybrick, Feigenbaum, and the like get.

                      and I know im on the minority on the jack and torsoman being the same man (probably- im at about 70%) but Jerrys man Wildbore, the WH worker ticks quite a few of the boxes. and Im intrigued by him. as I mentioned- I would love any book about this should jerry decide to go for it. hes found a lot of interesting anomalies and would love to see his whole theory with all the research hes done laid out in one place.

                      Im of pretty firm belief the killers name is one weve heard before in connection to the case.
                      Your mention of Levy is a coincidence because around a week ago I bought a free ebook by Alan Razen called Squaring The Circle: Will The Real Jack The Ripper Please Stand Up. I havenít read it yet (which means that I now have 2 ebooks by him that I havenít read - the other being on the Hanratty case) but I glanced at the end and he appears to go for a joint Harris and Levy ripper. Iíll hopefully get round to reading it soon.

                      As you know I donít go for a joint ripper/TK but I could be totally wrong on that one. I donít think that Lech was the ripper but the fact that he was alone with Nichols makes it understandable why heís considered. I just donít see anything else against him. A certain Swedish poster would disagree of course. But at least with Lechmere there is that link. Hardiman was just alive at the time along with a thousand other men.

                      I do recall reading something about Wildbore over on the Forum and he sounded interesting at the time. I cant recall the details though. Iíll have to go and have another look.
                      Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 08-15-2019, 06:34 PM.
                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        Your mention of Levy is a coincidence because around a week ago I bought a free ebook by Alan Razen called Squaring The Circle: Will The Real Jack The Ripper Please Stand Up. I havenít read it yet (which means that I now have 2 ebooks by him that I havenít read - the other being on the Hanratty case) but I glanced at the end and he appears to go for a joint Harris and Levy ripper. Iíll hopefully get round to reading it soon.

                        As you know I donít go for a joint ripper/TK but I could be totally wrong on that one. I donít think that Lech was the ripper but the fact that he was alone with Nichols makes it understandable why heís considered. I just donít see anything else against him. A certain Swedish poster would disagree of course. But at least with Lechmere there is that link. Hardiman was just alive at the time along with a thousand other men.

                        I do recall reading something about Wildbore over on the Forum and he sounded interesting at the time. I cant recall the details though. Iíll have to go and have another look.
                        hi hs

                        Your mention of Levy is a coincidence because around a week ago I bought a free ebook by Alan Razen called Squaring The Circle: Will The Real Jack The Ripper Please Stand Up. I havenít read it yet (which means that I now have 2 ebooks by him that I havenít read - the other being on the Hanratty case) but I glanced at the end and he appears to go for a joint Harris and Levy ripper. Iíll hopefully get round to reading it soon.
                        my issue with levy is hes a typical after the fact fit em up suspect, theres no physical ties to the case-basically hes an extension of the anderson/fido crazy jew wild goose chase that continues to this day. and Hardiman is a lot like levy-very tenuous connection to the case and extremely weak (if any) circumstantial evidence.

                        As you know I donít go for a joint ripper/TK but I could be totally wrong on that one. I donít think that Lech was the ripper but the fact that he was alone with Nichols makes it understandable why heís considered. I just donít see anything else against him. A certain Swedish poster would disagree of course. But at least with Lechmere there is that link. Hardiman was just alive at the time along with a thousand other men.
                        lech could have been pollys killer, hes got some discrepencies and his work route and mums place takes him near the murder scenes. plus hes one of the only suspects that fits the bill agewise for being the 73 torso killer. so, as a leaner toward a torsoripper, I have to take that into consideration. IMHO hes not a bad suspect either or.

                        I do recall reading something about Wildbore over on the Forum and he sounded interesting at the time. I cant recall the details though. Iíll have to go and have another loo
                        k.

                        jerry Dunlop has done some stellar and intriguing research into wildbore and other surrounding all the weirdness of the torsos, including how seemingly someone tipped off about them before discovery in two of the cases. I believe his theory is along the lines of more than one man working together for both series. Now Im no conspiracy theorist and generally scoff at them, but Jerry backs his ideas up with great research, facts and analysis. Its rare that serial killers work together, but its been known to happen-lake and Ng, the hillside stranglers, shawcross and his lackey.

                        re wildbore-he was working in NSY at the time of the Whitehall mystery, his rout home took him right past some of the torsos and he had some weird discrepencies in his statements to police. I would love if Jerry ever wrote a book or lengthy article on his ideas on all this.
                        Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-15-2019, 08:03 PM.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          my issue with levy is hes a typical after the fact fit em up suspect, theres no physical ties to the case-basically hes an extension of the anderson/fido crazy jew wild goose chase that continues to this day. and Hardiman is a lot like levy-very tenuous connection to the case and extremely weak (if any) circumstantial evidence.
                          There's no suspects with physical ties to the case. That's the allure of taking witnesses and overcooking them into suspects.

                          Jacob Levy's connection to the case is that he lived in Whitechapel all his life, his brother resided in Goulston Street, his cousin was Joseph Levy (the cagey witness), he lived in the hot zone, he had violent thoughts, prowled the streets at night, he had knife skills, he had a criminal past, his mother died in May 1888, his other brother committed suicide via hanging (but Jacob said he cut his own throat!?). That's far from tenuous imo.
                          Last edited by Harry D; 08-15-2019, 10:47 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                            There's no suspects with physical ties to the case. That's the allure of taking witnesses and overcooking them into suspects.

                            Jacob Levy's connection to the case is that he lived in Whitechapel all his life, his brother resided in Goulston Street, his cousin was Joseph Levy (the cagey witness), he lived in the hot zone, he had violent thoughts, prowled the streets at night, he had knife skills, he had a criminal past, his mother died in May 1888, his other brother committed suicide via hanging (but Jacob said he cut his own throat!?). That's far from tenuous imo.
                            hi harry
                            of course there are suspects with physical ties to the case, and better yet -to victims, some near or at TOD. kosminski, hutch, barnett, lechmere etc. and other valid suspects have ties to the case- bury, kelly chapman druitt were all suspects or persons of interest at the time by police.

                            on the contrary, levy has absolutely zero ties to the case whatsoever, and its not proven at all that he was a cousin to joseph levy and even if he was so what? talk about tenuous. jacob levy is nothing more than another modern day crazy jew theory entry.

                            now that being said, folks should definitely keep researching him and others like him, and if anything can be found that shows a modicum of linkage to the case than ill be all over it. and gladly eat crow.

                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                              This was almost definitely the Torso killer.
                              This man was found to be a workman [no name mentioned] and his business there was not very clear as this article states.

                              St James Gazette
                              Oct 16, 1888


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                re wildbore-he was working in NSY at the time of the Whitehall mystery, his rout home took him right past some of the torsos and he had some weird discrepencies in his statements to police. I would love if Jerry ever wrote a book or lengthy article on his ideas on all this.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
                                Thanks Abby.

                                I appreciate your confidence in my work on Wildbore. I think the lengthy article would be more realistic than the book. Hopefully someday I can come through on that. In the meantime I will continue to post anything else related to him and the torsos that I can dig up.

                                Comment

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