Jack the Ripper A-Z

[mariab]

John Riffuls,
your post is priceless!
Does anybody know if there will be a corrected paperback edition of the new A-Z in about a year or so? I'd rather buy that.

[The Grave Maurice]

I honestly can't understand what johnr is saying. I've read his post three times, and I think he's paying tribute to the stellar work of Begg, Fido and Skinner, in which case, I concur.

I also note that John has changed the spelling of his last name, no doubt to be part of the Diemschutz-Diemshitz vowel movement.

[Into The Abyss]

Rob Clack said:

I don't know enough about the history of the Sussex Police to make comment, but there is a document in P.C Harvey's file stating (as I read it):

The Superintendent
Sussex Constab'
Hailsham

Thanks for that, Rob, now I understand why the understandable factual error occurred in the A - Z. Whoever wrote the police document in 1876 made a mistake - it of course should have been "East Sussex Constabulary".

In relation to Stewart's comments about the Sussex constabularies, the 5 forces merged temporarily from 1943 to 1947, but then reverted back to their autonomous units until 1 January 1968, when they became the Sussex Police. (I remember it well - I was a police constable in the West Sussex Constabulary at the time and we got a much better quality uniform on the merger.)

[Stewart P Evans]

Amalgamated

...
In relation to Stewart's comments about the Sussex constabularies, the 5 forces merged temporarily from 1943 to 1947, but then reverted back to their autonomous units until 1 January 1968, when they became the Sussex Police. (I remember it well - I was a police constable in the West Sussex Constabulary at the time and we got a much better quality uniform on the merger.)

Yes, many forces amalgamated in 1967. In Suffolk, East Suffolk, Ipswich Borough and West Suffolk became Suffolk Constabulary. As you note, on 1 January 1968 Brighton, East Sussex, Eastbourne, Hastings and West Sussex merged to form Sussex Police.

I didn't join Suffolk Constabulary until 1969 but, even then, some of the old Ipswich Borough 'sweats' still couldn't come to terms with the amalgamation. They even had to exchange their 'rose'-topped helmets for the comb-topped helmets denoting an amalgamated force. It didn't suit them at all.

[Monty]

It would have been the City of Londons clerk (whose name I forget and Im in Manchester so cannot check) who would have made the error Abyss.

However it seems to have gotten there.

Monty

[mariab]

The Grave Maurice wrote:
I also note that John has changed the spelling of his last name, no doubt to be part of the Diemschutz-Diemshitz vowel movement.
And I (as a newbie) thought that Johnr's was a peculiar surname...
It's apparently all about “posteriority“ on poor Diemster (Dumpster?), as Sam Flynn said.

[Tom_Wescott]

At least the "Diemschutz" version, with or without umlaut, spares poor old LD from the dubious posterity (posteriority?) of having the "$hitz" for all time.

This was Adam Went's response...that it's okay for us to knowingly perpetuate a factual error to make his name less funny. Went also suggested books should not include Mrs. Mortimer's first name (Fanny) for the same reason. From a historical perspective, this seems a very strange stance to me.

Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made. Every other document referred to, to say nothing of newspaper coverage, refer to these men as Diemshitz and Wess. End of story. Unless we want to start calling Charles Cross 'George Cross' again because that's how the Times liked his name.

I hear that my real name in Ripperology should have been Maria Birkwood. It seems like I've disappointed many people for not having been the reincarnation of her.

Maria Birchwood, a scholar and a gentleman. Well, not so much a scholar, really. And she only looked like a gentleman...didn't behave so much like one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made. Every other document referred to, to say nothing of newspaper coverage, refer to these men as Diemshitz and Wess. End of story. Unless we want to start calling Charles Cross 'George Cross' again because that's how the Times liked his name.
Seems like some British Ripperologists worship The Times as God. I happen to know many British non-Ripperologists who happen to do so too.
(I'm afraid that, were I a resident in the UK, I would rather be reading The Guardian (esp. on Wednesdays, when the job ads come out). Now shoot me to death – the “conservatives“ among you.)
I'll soon start to see this Maria Birchwood (butch?) lady in my sleep, if people keep reminiscing about her in front of me all the time.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Maria

Is the original name really Russian, or Jewish? Because it certainly doesn't sound Russian...

The name D*(*)ms*(*)*(¨)t* originated in the village of Domashitsy, on the outskirts of Pinsk (Belarus).

[Sam Flynn]

Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made.

Yes, there is - namely, that English orthography cannot reproduce the original name except via approximate transliterations, of which there could be more than one. There is no "correct English" way of rendering this name, because it's not a "correct English name" in the first place.

It's only my second day back, and I've had enough of this already.

Bye!

[mariab]

To Sam Flynn:
"ДЫМШЫЦ", Domashitsy, very interesting. I can read some of the cyrillic alphabet, but not all. I know that “doma“ (approximatively transliterated, and pronounced “duoma“ in Russian) means “home“. No idea if it writes likes this “ДЫМШ“ in Russian, and no idea what “shitsy“ means in Russian. (I know people who speak and write Russian, but not available here.) But after your explanation it totally sounds like a Russian (vs. a Jewish) word/town.
And by the by, “Diem“- is not the correct transliteration for Russian, it should have been “Dim-“ (“shitz“). “Diem-shitz“ shows a Germanic/Yiddish provenance.

[Tom_Wescott]

There is no "correct English" way of rendering this name, because it's not a "correct English name" in the first place.

Uh, how about the way Diemshitz and HIS family chose to spell it? Is that not good enough? Otherwise, let's just make Macnaghten MacNaughton, or McNaghten, since that's how most writers spell it anyway. This isn't rocket science, folks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Incidentally the (rocket) science totally fits with how Diemshitz and his family chose to spell it.

[Natalie Severn]

This thread has developed a bit of a whiff

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Not to appear pedantic, Tom, but Wess's first name was Woolf, not William.

Wolf.