Tumblety: The Hidden Truth

[mklhawley]

Hi all,

I actually have more information than what was presented on Rippercast. Keep in mind, the original plan was to approach Rippercast later, but we were forced to show some of our cards prematurely. The dramatic stuff is out, though. My point: Be careful on concluding anything. For example, the answer to when Tumblety's disemboweled comment was made has been confirmed, but this info will come out later. Sorry Rob, although in your mind there is no other way...

Howard and Nina Brown - Great job, and yes, you have discovered the correct Richard Norris. There is even more. I did find some of the articles Nina found, but I will be giving you and Nina the credit. And yes, I am also surprised researchers never discovered Tumbley's intersex condition, especially when the police in likely multiple cities knew.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Emily Harless]

Hello Emily... sounds like fascinating research you are doing..as one of the people who broke this revelation about Tumblety I want to stress that I in NO WAY think that the condition adds anything to him being a suspect... to me, it was just a side note....and one I knew people would find interesting.. please let us know more about your study .

Steadmund Brand

I totally agree that it doesn't add much (if anything) to his status as a suspect. I find his behavior very interesting, and based on what I already know about the experience of hermaphrodites during the Elizabethan and Victorian periods, it seems that Tumblety is a great example of what the mistreatment of intersexed individuals can do to their psychological health. Tumblety brings together two things I'm really enthusiastic about: the Ripper case and the history of "hermaphrodites".

[Steadmund Brand]

Hello Emily... sounds like fascinating research you are doing..as one of the people who broke this revelation about Tumblety I want to stress that I in NO WAY think that the condition adds anything to him being a suspect... to me, it was just a side note....and one I knew people would find interesting.. please let us know more about your study .

Steadmund Brand

[jmenges]

Hi Emily. I don't think you've accumulated enough posts to send or receive private messages here yet so feel free to email me:

rippercastpodcast at gmail dot com.

Maybe you can give me more of an idea of what you might like to find in the new Tumblety documents and I can see if I can help you out. As you've heard on the show, there were multiple people (attorneys, nurses, undertakers, and Norris) that commented on his "hermaphroditic" disorder.

Thanks for listening to the podcast,

Jonathan

[Emily Harless]

Searching for Documents

So, I'm very interested in studying the medical and social treatment of so called "hermaphrodites" from the Elizabethan and Victorian periods (I've been doing it for a couple of years now), and I'd really like to get a copy of those pages. Especially Norris's deposition. I'm hoping to do some research and write a paper on it, but without the primary source, it's kind of difficult to work on.
Any advice?
Btw, awesome segment. Really loved this episode.

[robhouse]

I agree with Ally's take on this: the "disembowelment" statement was made after the murders. There is really no other way to interpret this.

RH

[Ally]

LOL... considering pretty much all alcohol tastes like old moldy lemonade to me, you could probably get away with your ruse.

[Sam Flynn]

Ooh in that case I'm ordering a shot of Cognac Croizet Cuvée Leonie 1858.

(yes I googled to find out the world's most expensive shot.)

I've got a few cases of that I can sell you. I've stored it in old lemonade bottles, but it's genuine enough

[Ally]

I don't understand how you can definitively say the weren't close.. I can't say for sure they were... but you seem to imply that without question, 100% for sure they were not....how?

Can I definitively state that they weren't close? No. But there was nothing in anything he said that indicated closeness. He refused him often and seemed to view him mostly as a means to an end.

But what I can state is that Norris didn't know Tumblety was in England at the time of the Whitechapel murders until Tumblety told him he had been...after Norris had already gone to the police. And I can state that, because that's the narrative he gave.

So there would have been no reason for Norris to read about the prositute murders and immediately connect it to Tumblety. Based on an offhand comment years before.

P.S when we do all get together remember the first drink is on me!!

Ooh in that case I'm ordering a shot of Cognac Croizet Cuvée Leonie 1858.


(yes I googled to find out the world's most expensive shot.)

[Steadmund Brand]

I still have my main caveats though- killers usually target the object of there sexual desire, and T was gay soooo. Was he possibly Bi?

but what another completely bizarre fascinating side issue/submystery involving the ripper case!!??!

Well depends... on if you believe he was inter-sexed or micro penis....inter sexed that wouldn't make him gay really would it

Steadmund Brand

[Steadmund Brand]

Close people don't mention how many times they tried to shun you during the course of your relationship.

He says that when Tumblety would come to Mardi Gras, he'd send him a note, letting him know he was in town. He says Tumblety never told him of his family or anything else.

They weren't "close".

There is nothing in his description of their relationship that indicates closeness or confidences or anything other than acquaintances who knew each other and who would meet up, so Tumblety could buy him things every Mardis Gras.

=.

I don't understand how you can definitively say the weren't close.. I can't say for sure they were... but you seem to imply that without question, 100% for sure they were not....how? There IS something in the description of their relationship that indicates it (at least from one side).. the length of time and years it spanned....Look if it were just sex, there were PLENTY of "hustlers" around, especially Mardi Gras, that Tumblety could have "had".. especially knowing his proclivity, younger ones at that...and if it were just have an acquaintance...seriously? in New Orleans... at Mardi Gras...when you are rich? that doesn't add up... "close" does not always mean "confidences" by any means....and it could have been a totally one sided "closeness" with Norris just in it for the free swag

As for mentioning the shunning... well, seems like Norris again trying to make himself look like a good guy...when (we both agree) he really comes across more like a scumbag (see we do agree on some things that and Vodka based drinks!!!)

Also, remember, Tumblety NEVER talked about family.. so that is no surprise... but he loved to brag about England and being important to people.. so that seems pretty reasonable to me

Steadmund Brand

P.S when we do all get together remember the first drink is on me!!

[Abby Normal]

I don't know about anyone else, but this is pretty big IMHO.

sworn testimony from someone who knew him well, saying he had knives and surgical equipment, that prostitutes should be disemboweled, confirms his hate of women. Hes obviously a sexually frustrated individual.

Id never had T very high on my list but this has to bump him up, does it not??

added to above, he was there at the time and was a police suspect.

I still have my main caveats though- killers usually target the object of there sexual desire, and T was gay soooo. Was he possibly Bi?

also, none of the witnesses describe a large man-None.

but what another completely bizarre fascinating side issue/submystery involving the ripper case!!??!

[Robert]

Hi Stead

Surely Norris would have just said to the police "You know that Tumblety guy who arrived from England under a cloud? Well...."

Why would Norris say "He answers the description"?

[Ally]

Actually he wasn't close to Tumblety and there is nothing to indicate that he knew he went to England or that he knew he was in England until Tumblety told him that he'd been there.... after he already had reported it to the police. He asked him about the Whitechapel business, after he said he had already reported it to the police. His narrative went: Tumblety said that about the disembowelment, he'd already heard of the murders. He went to the police, the police said he matched the description, he asked about the murders to Tumblety, Tumblety said he'd been in England at the time, and then Norris tried to shun him.

Close people don't mention how many times they tried to shun you during the course of your relationship.

He says that when Tumblety would come to Mardi Gras, he'd send him a note, letting him know he was in town. He says Tumblety never told him of his family or anything else.

They weren't "close".

There is nothing in his description of their relationship that indicates closeness or confidences or anything other than acquaintances who knew each other and who would meet up, so Tumblety could buy him things every Mardis Gras.

And it still doesn't make sense that he would just randomly connect an off hand comment to a man he knew to be gay, to a woman killer in England based on literally nothing else than an offhand comment 8 years prior. Not enough to warrant a trip to the police.

[Steadmund Brand]

Actually Ally... he was "close" with Tumblety, and he knew he went to England every year, and that he came to Mardi Gras every year, AND he said he told him he was in England at the time...so he did have plenty to connect him to England.. again....I think, he mentioned the disemboweling in 1881.. only because he said it when he "threatened" Norris, took his cigarette away and said what he did about Smoking and Night walkers being bad....then in 1888-1889 when he said he read about the killings and Tumblety told him he was there at the time Norris "got freaked" (which I don't get.. he freaks out at that.. but not in 1881 when he locked him in a room at knife point and attempted to "rape" him.....strange don't ya think????)
my guess is (and this is JUST A GUESS as we have no proof) is that....the murders happen...Norris read about it like everyone else in the world, when he see's Tumblety again he asks him about them, ya know like "hey, you go to England... did you hear anything about these" and when Tumblety confirmed he was there Norris went to the police and said this guy once told me that night walkers should be disemboweled and he has these knives and he WAS in England when it happened....he may be "Jack the Ripper" can I have a reward now? (I think that is the kind of character Norris was)

Steadmund Brand