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Schwartz v. Lawende

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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    It is very common to spit out the skins and the seeds. Though a woman not so disposed to spitting in public will often take a more lady-like approach and wipe them from her lips with a handkerchief, hence the fruit stains on her handkerchief investigated by Dr. Phillips.




    Packer makes no mention of a grape stalk in his statement, and Swanson does not attribute the story of the finding to Packer.



    I don't recall this incident being questioned by police, or anyone else in authority.



    Absolutely, anyone could have dropped it, and as "anyone" includes both Stride and her client, then by what reasoning can we dismiss either of them as the source?
    Because none of the men Stride was seen with were holding grapes, nor was Stride. They might have found any number of things in the yard. There was a pile of dung but that doesn't constitute evidence that Stride took a dump. Same with the grape stalk. None of the coppers bought into it. And that's nonsense about fruit stains on handkerchief having anything to do with grapes. Where were the seeds and skins?

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
      I think I might have to bow out of this thread for the time being
      Bye
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
        Bye
        Would you prefer to be left to your illusions, Deej? I didn't mean to crash your party with solid research and hard facts.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          Right at the outset Packer denied seeing anyone or anything, yes agreed.
          Public relations with the police were not always cordial. Packer could just as easily have been trying brush the police off, not wanting to have anything to do with the incident.
          He wouldn't be the first witness to tell the police, [I]"I saw nothing, I heard nothing, go away copper!"
          Sounds like Cross!

          Agree with the rest also.

          Did a little deeper.....why would two private eyes want to take him to Scotland Yard to see/not see Warren?
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
            Three men, and not two, identified Stride as the woman they saw at the Bricklayer's Arms. So either all three were lying, all three were mistaken, or all three were telling the truth. I see no reason to suppose they were lying or mistaken. Unlike Tabram and Chapman, Stride did not have a common face.
            Sincerely doubt that.

            Your point about Fat Lip Liz is taken though.

            Welcome back

            Edit. Maybea not
            Last edited by DJA; 01-31-2016, 09:02 PM. Reason: Edit.
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

              Did a little deeper.....why would two private eyes want to take him to Scotland Yard to see/not see Warren?
              No one took Packer to see Warren, but I believe others have pointed that out to you by now.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                Sincerely doubt that.

                Your point about Fat Lip Liz is taken though.

                Welcome back
                Hippy meant to protrude, I believe. She was also known as Epileptic Annie because she'd fake seizures and fainting. I've often wondered if that's not what she did with the Ripper - faked fainting because she thought she was being robbed, but instead he cut her throat. I doubt that's the case, but possible. It's also possible she fainted for real. But most likely he choked her unconscious.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  Hippy meant to protrude, I believe.
                  Where were you in the 1960s....apart from watching The Tall Man on TV
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Hi all
                    IMHO packer is a more useless and obfuscating a witness than Mortimer.

                    Both gossipy busybodies looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
                    All they do is add confusion-Do yourself a favor and forget them.

                    Or perhaps they might make good candidates for the ripper?
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      IMHO packer is a more useless and obfuscating a witness than Cross.
                      Fixed
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        Hi all
                        IMHO packer is a more useless and obfuscating a witness than Mortimer.

                        Both gossipy busybodies looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
                        All they do is add confusion-Do yourself a favor and forget them.

                        Or perhaps they might make good candidates for the ripper?
                        Hi Abby,

                        I agree about Packer, but Mortimer's testimony makes sense-well, the second version anyway! In fact, it gels very nicely with PC Smith's evidence, based upon a more realistic time line.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Hi all
                          IMHO packer is a more useless and obfuscating a witness than Mortimer.
                          I should think so, since Mortimer is proved accurate and Packer is proved the opposite. Mortimer did seem to not mind the attention she was receiving, but the most sensational part of her story - the man with the black bag - turned out to be completely true, so that means we can't ignore her.

                          Originally posted by DJA
                          Where were you in the 1960s....apart from watching The Tall Man on TV
                          Waiting until the next decade to be born. I haven't seen the Tall Man, so that joke's lost on me.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by John G View Post
                            Murdering victims in a public area, by slitting their throat, was an exceptionally rare crime, at least for the Whitechapel area!
                            The fact that the knife was used to slit a throat means that Liz was one of three women on that same night who suffered the same fate. The fact that only 2 murders within the Canonical Group were on public property is indicative that the idea these were "public" murders is incorrect.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                              Fixed
                              Hi DJA
                              please don't do that. you could give people the wrong idea about what I said who don't see my original post.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                                The fact that the knife was used to slit a throat means that Liz was one of three women on that same night who suffered the same fate. The fact that only 2 murders within the Canonical Group were on public property is indicative that the idea these were "public" murders is incorrect.
                                The third murder that you refer to was that of Sarah Brown. However, this much more common domestic murder had little in common with the Whitechapel crimes: the victim was killed in her own home, which was not in Whitechapel, or even the East End, but in Westminster. Moreover, it wasn't an unsolved crime, either: the victim's husband walked straight into a police station and told the officer on duty, "I have stabbed my wife." He was subsequently found guilty but insane.

                                Comment

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