Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

>>If the club was preceived as housing the killer, or being the source for the killer, ... then it would have been closed, promptly. <<

If riots in the street, anarchist interests, powerful Jewish opposition and local disenchantment didn't close down the club, I doubt one more thing added to the tally would have much difference.

Of course the club closed itself within a few years due to infighting. It moved to another location close by, so jobs were no more threatened than any at the time.

As for Eagle, there were no shortage of speaking opportunities across the UK (and America) for committed socialists. There are records of Diemshitz speaking to the faithful in Manchester.

Eagle, of course, was involved in the tailors strike the following year which would have kept him busy.

It would be disingenuous of me to say that I believe your perspective to be acute, which I believe based on the above seems to be that there was no real threat, financial or otherwise, posed by the presumption of a murderer coming from the club, despite the fact that as I mentioned the "horrible murders" of preceding local women were thought by the authorities to have been committed by an Immigrant Jew, and that the men I mentioned relied on that club for at least some of their income.

As for Diemshitz there are also arrest records for him attacking policemen with a club in Dutfields Yard the following summer. Lobbying for the closure of a facility based on philosophical differences is substantially different than doing so because the facility was thought to be housing a murderer and potentially a serial maniac at large. This would have been done for the safety of the local citizens, and as such, would have cast suspicion upon all the related clubs and organizations in London. This wasnt a risk for just this 1 club, it was a risk for all of them. It could have set their cause back years.

[Tom_Wescott]

It would be disingenuous of me to say that I believe your perspective to be acute, which I believe based on the above seems to be that there was no real threat, financial or otherwise, posed by the presumption of a murderer coming from the club, despite the fact that as I mentioned the "horrible murders" of preceding local women were thought by the authorities to have been committed by an Immigrant Jew, and that the men I mentioned relied on that club for at least some of their income.

As for Diemshitz there are also arrest records for him attacking policemen with a club in Dutfields Yard the following summer. Lobbying for the closure of a facility based on philosophical differences is substantially different than doing so because the facility was thought to be housing a murderer and potentially a serial maniac at large. This would have been done for the safety of the local citizens, and as such, would have cast suspicion upon all the related clubs and organizations in London. This wasnt a risk for just this 1 club, it was a risk for all of them. It could have set their cause back years.

There was allegedly a fight at the club two weeks before Stride's murder and two people were arrested. Also, around that time they did their march against Judaism which was unprecedented in history, and that DID make the papers and a lot of people were quite upset with them. All of that they were prepared for in advance, but they were not prepared for a gentile woman to be murdered in their yard, so they set about doing two things: 1) Figuring out how to get the heat of them, and 2) How they could make money from it. Wess marched Leon Goldstein to the police to clear himself but then marched himself straight to a newspaper office to make sure it got in the press that the man Mortimer saw had cleared himself of suspicion and was not a suspect. This is important because Mortimer expressed her opinion that the man she saw with the black bag (regarded as a suspect) was a member of the club. I would not be surprised at all to find out that Wess also marched Israel Schwartz into the same station, but unfortunately we don't know either way.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Originally Posted by S.Brett
There is a clue upon which the authorities have been zealously working for some time. This is in Whitechapel, not far from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy, and the man is, indeed, himself aware that he is being watched; so much so, that, as far as observation has gone at present, he has scarcely ventured out of doors.

I find this paragraph very similar to part of Henry Coxs' statement

"It is indeed very strange that as soon as this madman was put under observation, the mysterious crimes ceased, and that very soon he removed from his usual haunts and gave up his nightly prowls".

One could argue that as he said this was after the last murder, he meant Mary Kelly, but it cold equally have meant Catherine Eddowes or Annie Chapman.

He said
"While the Whitechapel murders were being perpetrated his place of business was in a certain street, and after the last murder I was on duty in this street for nearly three months".

Would you please point me to anything on Le Grands connection with Matthew Packer Mr Westcott? I cant find it...Many Thanks
Pat

Thanks for that Pat.... Its often stated that Inspector Reid didnt have a clue as the identity of JTR ... But he also supports a Berner Street theory... His man drank in the Princess Alice..

Like you i wonder if despite Packers Story being elaborated whether or not there might be some kernels of truth in his evidence

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Thanks, Karsten. I'm not sure. I'm still working on it. I'd like to see it come out in April but there's no firm release date yet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks, Tom!

After "The Bank Holiday Murders" I am already looking forward to your "Whitechapel Confidential" and your "Le Grand" book.

Yours Karsten.

[S.Brett]

[I][B]One could argue that as he said this was after the last murder, he meant Mary Kelly, but it cold equally have meant Catherine Eddowes or Annie Chapman.

He said
"While the Whitechapel murders were being perpetrated his place of business was in a certain street, and after the last murder I was on duty in this street for nearly three months".

Hi Pat!

Yes, Eddowes... why not...

Cox:

It was not easy to forget that already one of them had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street

However I rather think "after the last murder" meant but it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail

Maybe that the "October Man" is the same man Cox had watched for nearly three months after Kelly. In both cases no murder took place as soon as this madman was put under observation.

it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail could mean something happened after this murder and the "strong suspect" with "many circs" from October did show "Homicidal Tendencies" (threatened his sister with a knife/ Brick Lane incident on 22 November 1888???) and at the end the police did find "Kosminski" in an asylum in Surrey and after his release Cox watched him.

Karsten.

[John G]

Nobody screamed. Please read the Swanson report again. Any sound made would have blended in with the club noise. You can't pick one press report and say Mortimer contradicts Schwartz when her overall testimony clearly does not. Look at the Oct. 19th Swanson report where Swanson puts his stamp on Schwartz and also mentions Mortimer. If her information proved Schwartz a liar we'd likely see that mentioned.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

The official police report states: "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round a threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times but not very loudly." (The emphasis is mine)

The report also casts serious doubt as to whether PC Smith and Schwartz saw the same man:

"It will be observed that allowing for differences of opinion between the PC and Schwartz as to the apparent age and height of the man each saw with the woman whose body they both identified there are serious differences in the description of dress...so that at least it is rendered doubtful whether they are describing the same man". (The emphasis is mine)

And, considering PC Smith was a police officer, and he noticed the flower, his evidence clearly has to be regarded as by far the more reliable. Moreover, as Gavin's excellent analysis reveals, it would seem more likely that he passed Stride and the suspect between 12:40 and 12:45, than 12:30 and 12:35. Therefore, if Schwartz's account is to be wholly accepted, we are left with the major coincidence of Stride coming into direct contact with two different men, in pretty much the same location, in the space of just a few minutes, or even a few seconds.

Of course, Mortimer doesn't prove that Schwartz lied, or that he was mistaken in his timings, but her evidence does cast doubt on his testimony, i.e. her failure to hear either the screams, the sounds of an altercation, or the shout of "Lipski", when her hearing was acute enough to hear the tread of a police officer passing by, and the approach of Louis' pony and cart.

And what of the second version of Mortimer's account? We are told that she had gone back inside about 4 minutes before hearing the pony and cart pass by; this suggests a time of about 12:56, which is supported by the Goldstein sighting. However, she had previously been stood at her door for no more than 10 minutes-so from 12:46 onwards- and shortly after she'd "heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat." This seems to confirm that PC Smith may well have passed by close to 12:45 which, as I noted earlier, means that if Schwartz is wholly accepted then Stride must have encountered BS man within minutes, and possibly seconds, after PC Smith's suspect had departed, which I think is coincidental to say the least.

We do know that the police originally believed Schwartz, however, doubts seem to creep in very quickly. As the Star reported on 2 October, "In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman Street Police have reason to doubt the truth of the story." (The emphasis is mine)

Of course, the higher echelons of the force, the Swansons and Andersons, still had confidence in Schwartz for some time later, but they were clearly desperate for a witness who could provide a reliable identification of a suspect, and were clearly not in a position to objectively assess Schwartz's credibility to the same extent as the boys in the front line; the boys at Leman Street.

And for how long did even the police hierarchy maintain confidence in Schwartz? I think the fact that he wasn't utilized subsequently in the investigation-like Hutchinson, but unlike Lawende- probably answers that question.

[S.Brett]

Hi Pat!

Yes, Eddowes... why not...

Cox:

It was not easy to forget that already one of them had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street

However I rather think "after the last murder" meant but it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail

Maybe that the "October Man" is the same man Cox had watched for nearly three months after Kelly. In both cases no murder took place as soon as this madman was put under observation.

it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail could mean something happened after this murder and the "strong suspect" with "many circs" from October did show "Homicidal Tendencies" (threatened his sister with a knife/ Brick Lane incident on 22 November 1888???) and at the end the police did find "Kosminski" in an asylum in Surrey and after his release Cox watched him.

Karsten.

Sorry, I forgot;

Swanson:

And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London

Could mean this "Homicidal Tendencies" incident long before the Seaside Home ID took place...

[John G]

@John:

Kelly's inquest

[Coroner] How many men live in the court who work in Spitalfields Market ? - One. At a quarter- past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.

[Coroner] From what house did he go ? - I don't know.

[Coroner] Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.

[Coroner] Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.

[Coroner] It might have been a policeman ? - It might have been.

It seems that Mrs. Cox was not quite sure whether there was a constable...

You wrote: so it would have been a sound that she (Mortimer) was very familiar with... (the sound of a policeman) Cox stated: It might have been (a policeman)...

Imagine Fanny Mortimer at the Stride inquest, [Coroner] It might have been a policeman at 12.45am ? - It might have been... and Mary Ann Cox interviewed by a reporter after the Kelly murder... she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat...

What I want to say (by turning the tables) is... it could make more sense to trust the police and the coroner than the press...

Regards, Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Yes, of course we cannot be certain that Mortimer heard a policeman passing by. However, unlike Cox, she seems to have had no doubts about what she heard and, as I noted previously, it would have been a sound that she was extremely familiar with.

[Jeff Leahy]

Swanson:

And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London

Could mean this "Homicidal Tendencies" incident long before the Seaside Home ID took place...

Yes, and if that ID was early on its reasonable to speculate that the police would have used Schwartz and Lawende

And as Cox was following his man for Three months it means that ID failed...

As Mcnaughten confirms Kozminski entered the asylum in March 1889...

But when did Packer see him back on the street?

Yours Jeff

[John G]

I think it might be useful to have a recap of PC Smith's timings. Thus, he estimated that he had seen Stride, with the suspect, between 12:30 and 12:35. However, this conclusion seems to have been based on a false premise: PC Smith stated that his beat took around 25-30 minutes, and that he arrived back at Berner Street at 1:00am, hence the 12:30-35 estimate.

However, PC Lamb was already at the murder scene at this time, and we know that he arrived at approximately 1:05-and, of course, the body wasn't even discovered until 1:00am, and PC Smith clearly didn't notice anyone running or calling for help in the immediate aftermath of the discovery. Moreover, at the inquest he stated:"I saw the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for the ambulance...Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now I think a reasonable inference is that PC Smith didn't stay very long before leaving to fetch the ambulance, passing Edward Johnston on the way out of the yard. But Johnston didn't get there until 1:12 to 1:13, suggesting that the constable arrived at, say, around 1:10. If this is the case, then PC Smith most probably saw Stride, with the suspect, sometime between 12:40 and 12:45.

What does all this mean for Schwartz's suspect. Well, if we take the earlier time of 12:40, and assume that Mortimer arrived at her doorstep at about 12:46, then it leaves very little time for PC Smith's suspect, who was talking to Stride, to have finished his conversation and departed the scene; for the ensemble of Schwartz, Pipeman, and BS man to have arrived; for the significant altercation described by Schwartz to have taken place; for BS man to have seen off Schwartz and for both him and Pipeman to have departed Berner Street; and for both Stride and BS man to be also out of sight by the time Mortimer arrives at her doorstep. And if we take the average time estimate of 12:42-43 for PC Smith's sighting of Stride and the suspect...

And, of course, if Stride was soliciting, when PC Smith saw her talking with the suspect, we might have to factor in additional time for her to have gone into Dutfield's Yard with this man!

[Michael W Richards]

There was allegedly a fight at the club two weeks before Stride's murder and two people were arrested. Also, around that time they did their march against Judaism which was unprecedented in history, and that DID make the papers and a lot of people were quite upset with them. All of that they were prepared for in advance, but they were not prepared for a gentile woman to be murdered in their yard, so they set about doing two things: 1) Figuring out how to get the heat of them, and 2) How they could make money from it. Wess marched Leon Goldstein to the police to clear himself but then marched himself straight to a newspaper office to make sure it got in the press that the man Mortimer saw had cleared himself of suspicion and was not a suspect. This is important because Mortimer expressed her opinion that the man she saw with the black bag (regarded as a suspect) was a member of the club. I would not be surprised at all to find out that Wess also marched Israel Schwartz into the same station, but unfortunately we don't know either way.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I believe that we do see the situation in similar terms Tom. Where we differ perhaps is where to put our money on the witness testimonies. I believe Israel isnt a horse to back for the same reasons you cite above....ensuring the situation was diffused.

[S.Brett]

But when did Packer see him back on the street?

Hi Jeff! 27 October.

Evening News
31 October 1888

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881031.html

WHAT MATTHEW PACKER SAYS.

A representative of The Evening News this morning had an interview with Mr. Matthew Packer, at 44, Berner-street, with reference to the rumour that the supposed Whitechapel assassin had been seen by him again on Saturday last. Packer made the following statement:

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last (27 October 1888) , I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

Imagine that "Kosminski" was seen by Packer on 27 October- when he was watched by the police during October 1888 (as an inmate of an East End Infirmary and in his shop)- and he was "being watched; so much so, that, as far as observation has gone at present, he has scarcely ventured out of doors" then it is possible that a surveillance of "Kosminski" by the police did not make much sense after "Kosminski" turned into a rumour (Press).

It seems that City Police had been present (End of 1890) in Greenfield Street shortly before Aaron Kozminski was admitted to Colney Hatch:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18901124-38&div=t18901124-38&terms=Sager#highlight

You know, his sister (Matilda) and one of his brothers (Isaac) lived there. And at the end of Greenfield Street Packer claimed to see "him" again...

But let us wait for Tomīs books on the subject (Packer/ Le Grand).

Yours Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Like you i wonder if despite Packers Story being elaborated whether or not there might be some kernels of truth in his evidence

I'm sure there was a degree of truth in what Packer said. The existence of the man with Stride, opposite the yard, around 12:30 is confirmed by PC Smith.
Packer's wavering on his story makes him unreliable if he were the sole witness, happily PC Smith does confirm a small part of what Packer said.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sure there was a degree of truth in what Packer said. The existence of the man with Stride, opposite the yard, around 12:30 is confirmed by PC Smith.
Packer's wavering on his story makes him unreliable if he were the sole witness, happily PC Smith does confirm a small part of what Packer said.

On October 2nd Packer did not recognize the woman he was taken to see at Golden Lane by LeGrand and Batchelor, on October 4th in the report taken by Carmichael Bruce, he says he did recognize her when he saw her. Dont think this man is someone I would associate with the truth Jon.

Cheers

[S.Brett]

On October 2nd Packer did not recognize the woman he was taken to see at Golden Lane by LeGrand and Batchelor, on October 4th in the report taken by Carmichael Bruce, he says he did recognize her when he saw her. Dont think this man is someone I would associate with the truth Jon.

Cheers

Hi Michael!

Golden Lane (Eddowes)

St. George's Mortuary (Stride)

Karsten.