Schwartz v. Lawende

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten,

Gavin Bromley carried out a thorough analysis of Smith's beat and concluded that he most probably saw Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, not 12:30 and 12:35. Of course, Smith was only estimating the time, and 12:45 would tie in with Mortimer's account. Of course, if he did see Stride at 12:45, then Schwartz's account is undermined.

The dissertation can be found here: http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true

Thanks John!

I know this dissertation... excellent work of Gavin Bromley... 2-3 minutes earlier or later on each person can make a substantial difference...

Schwartz about BS Man:

"he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated"... "The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her"...

But I can well imagine that a partially intoxicated and half-tipsy BS Man at 12.45am would have sounded like a PC on his beat when he was fleeing from the scene in the opposite direction of Schwartz and Pipeman... passing the home of Fanny Mortimer...

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

... and if Mortimer did hear BS Man at 12.45 am and after this did not see anyone (with the exception of Goldstein), then you might think, that the Ripper was already inside the Dutfield´s Yard... and PC Smith had probably seen this man shortly before...

[John G]

Thanks John!

I know this dissertation... excellent work of Gavin Bromley... 2-3 minutes earlier or later on each person can make a substantial difference...

Schwartz about BS Man:

"he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated"... "The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her"...

But I can well imagine that a partially intoxicated and half-tipsy BS Man at 12.45am would have sounded like a PC on his beat when he was fleeing from the scene in the opposite direction of Schwartz and Pipeman... passing the home of Fanny Mortimer...

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Personally, I think it unlikely that she heard BS man walking by. After all, if her hearing was that acute why didn't she hear Stride screaming, the shout of "Lipski" or the general altercation?

Moreover, she would would have been extremely used to hearing the sound of a police officer passing by-PC Smith must have passed Mortimer's residence several times per day- so I very much doubt she was wrong about that.

I think a more likely scenario is that she heard PC Smith passing by at around 12:45, suggesting that his suspect may well have been Stride's killer. Of course, this scenario further undermines Schwartz's evidence.

[S.Brett]

Personally, I think it unlikely that she heard BS man walking by.

Moreover, she would would have been extremely used to hearing the sound of a police officer passing by-PC Smith must have passed Mortimer's residence several times per day- so I very much doubt she was wrong about that.

I think a more likely scenario is that she heard PC Smith passing by at around 12:45, suggesting that his suspect may well have been Stride's killer. Of course, this scenario further undermines Schwartz's evidence.

Yes, John! Sounds convincing: "she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat".

After all, if her hearing was that acute why didn't she hear Stride screaming, the shout of "Lipski" or the general altercation

Okay but what did she hear at all between 12.30 - 01.00?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

For clarification: I should have said that her legs/feet were facing the street, indicating that she was attempting to exit the Yard when attacked. Of course, it is possible that the killer spun her around, or subsequently repositioned the body (although I'm not sure why he would want to do that.)

Coroner:"Was she [Stride] near the gateway?"

Eagle: "Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate."

Coroner: "Her head towards the yard?"

Eagle: " Yes, her feet to the gate and her head to the yard."

Why do you say that Stride was "rendered unconscious, laid on the ground and then murdered"? I accept this is a possibility, but there's surely no proof that it happened that way.

The crown of her head pointed towards the yard proper. The left side of her head rested across a jagged rock that was part of the make-shift gutter (and not a wheel rut that one paper mentioned) and her face therefore was towards the club wall, albeit at an angle. If you stood her up from this position she would be standing facing the wall just behind the right gate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Paul Begg cites the same source in "The Facts". Gavin Bromley, in his dissertation, also suggests that PC Smith may have passed by at 12:45, instead of 12:35. If this is the case, then the man that he saw with Stride surely has to be the prime suspect.

Thus, one possible scenario is that the killer waits until PC Smith is out of sight before inveigling Stride into the yard. He then slits her throat, before being disturbed by Fanny Mortimer appearing at her doorway (if he was JtR this would explain the failure to mutilate.)

Obviously he hopes that she will quickly return inside, however, she remains for 10 minutes. The killer is therefore sufficiently perturbed to flea the scene as soon as Mortimer returns indoors.

This scenario would also explain why the body was not seen by Eagle or Lave, assuming their timings were correct.

This works if Schwartz's story was a lie and if PC Smith lied about his times in order to keep from admitting that he was behind on his rounds.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi DJA, that's a bit over my head. I believe it was determined that Johnston was not actually a doctor, but it's been a decade and I cannot remember the details. It's worth a second look now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Indeed it would Tom.

Hebbert, the assistant to Dr. Bond is described as both "Dr." and "Mr".
The assistant to Dr. Brownfield, Mr Harris, is described as a "qualified practitioner".
Mr Percy J. Clark, is described as "surgeon and assistant to Mr Bagster Phillips".
Mr Johnston was in attendance at the Stride autopsy, along with Dr's Phillips, Blackwell & Reigate, in what capacity is not given.

An assistant to a doctor/surgeon/physician, will surely be required to have some qualifications.

[Rosella]

Could Johnston have been a young medical student, lodging with Dr Blackwell and making himself useful and handy around the surgery?

[Tom_Wescott]

Indeed it would Tom.

Hebbert, the assistant to Dr. Bond is described as both "Dr." and "Mr".
The assistant to Dr. Brownfield, Mr Harris, is described as a "qualified practitioner".
Mr Percy J. Clark, is described as "surgeon and assistant to Mr Bagster Phillips".
Mr Johnston was in attendance at the Stride autopsy, along with Dr's Phillips, Blackwell & Reigate, in what capacity is not given.

An assistant to a doctor/surgeon/physician, will surely be required to have some qualifications.

Hi Wick. Yes, I'm familiar with all these men. You might remember it was I who discovered Dr. Llewellyn's assistant, Dr. Seccombe. But I don't believe Edward Johnston was a doctor. Blackwell shared his practice with another doctor who was apparently not home that evening as he never made it to the scene.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

Blackwell's partner was Dr Kay, known to us becuase he attended the Lipski murder site the year before.

The two of them were involved in a case of a pregnant girl who committed suicide in 1889.

I believe their premises also served as a pharmacy as well.

[Tom_Wescott]

Blackwell's partner was Dr Kay, known to us becuase he attended the Lipski murder site the year before.

The two of them were involved in a case of a pregnant girl who committed suicide in 1889.

I believe their premises also served as a pharmacy as well.

Thanks, Strange. Perhaps it was in that capacity that Johnston was employed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, .[/I]

Hi Karsten

Yeah this is what I was getting at, I meant later than 12.35 not before.

Earlier in the thread one of the johns put up an article on PC Smiths beat that suggested he might well have passed at a later time than 12.35

The problem of course is Morris Eagle 12.40

But if Eagle is slightly earlier say 12.38 and Schwartz slightly later say 12.47

Then there is time for PC Smith to pass throw Berner street at around 12.42-3

And pass unseen by the other witnesses but heard by Fanny

It might be argued she cooperates this timing as it seems likely she would be familiar with the sound of PC Smith?

Yours Jeff

PS I've just noticed the article referred to was Gavin Bromley...thats what happens if you post before you read all the posts...but i think a claim for PC Smith being closer to 12.45 is interesting and not impossible jx

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

Yeah this is what I was getting at, I meant later than 12.35 not before.

Earlier in the thread one of the johns put up an article on PC Smiths beat that suggested he might well have passed at a later time than 12.35

The problem of course is Morris Eagle 12.40

But if Eagle is slightly earlier say 12.38 and Schwartz slightly later say 12.47

Then there is time for PC Smith to pass throw Berner street at around 12.42-3

And pass unseen by the other witnesses but heard by Fanny

It might be argued she cooperates this timing as it seems likely she would be familiar with the sound of PC Smith?

Yours Jeff

PS I've just noticed the article referred to was Gavin Bromley...thats what happens if you post before you read all the posts...but i think a claim for PC Smith being closer to 12.45 is interesting and not impossible jx

Hi Jeff,

If Schwartz is correct, where is BS Man at 12.45am? Whether BS Man was the Stride-killer or not, in which direction was he fleeing? The same direction as Schwartz and Pipeman? I have seen drunken men "fleeing" (sometimes it reminded me of Monty Python´s Silly Walk ) they can be very noisy... perhaps Mortimer heard BS Man passing by and thought it is the PC...

If her killer (Jack the Ripper) was already in the Dutfield´s Yard is it possible that Leon Goldstein was the reason that he left the place without mutilating the body of Stride?

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

If Schwartz is correct, where is BS Man at 12.45am? Whether BS Man was the Stride-killer or not, in which direction was he fleeing? The same direction as Schwartz and Pipeman? I have seen drunken men "fleeing" (sometimes it reminded me of Monty Python´s Silly Walk ) they can be very noisy... perhaps Mortimer heard BS Man passing by and thought it is the PC...

If her killer (Jack the Ripper) was already in the Dutfield´s Yard is it possible that Leon Goldstein was the reason that he left the place without mutilating the body of Stride?

Yours Karsten.

Well yes there are problems Karsten, as most posters here seem to recognise.

For a start, the definitive answer to the direction taken by PC smith was opposite Dutfield Yard heading from Fairclough towards Commercial Road direction, thats as we had it, but I'm far from certain this is a 'known', simply the most probable direction

If Fanny heard PC Smith and went out shortly afterwards at say 12.43 then she bumps into Schwartz and BSM....so this is a very tight window

Besides if the suspect seen by Smith is Kozminski, then Koz has plenty of time to go to Matildas Home in Greenfield street drop off or open the parcel and return infront of schwartz

Also the suspect need not be drunk only appear drunk, and people suffering psychotic episodes are often described as if 'appearing drunk'

Personal if Schwartz only gets a rear view of BSM then I don't see a problem in this man being the same man seen by PC Smith , Packer and Marshal and just seems like a long time for Stride to spend with a client if your trying to make a little money

Yours Jeff

[John G]

This works if Schwartz's story was a lie and if PC Smith lied about his times in order to keep from admitting that he was behind on his rounds.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Yes, unless Schwartz was seriously out with his timings, as Spooner, Heschberg and Kozebrodsky appear to have been. In which case, he may have witnessed the altercation appreciably earlier, say between 12:15 and 12:30, and the woman might not have been Stride.

As I see it there are many difficulties with Schwartz's evidence: the unresolved cachous problem; the failure of other witnesses to hear the altercation; failure of other witnesses to hear Stride screaming; failure of other witnesses to her the shout of "Lipski'; lack of damage to Stride's clothing, or bruising/grazing to her body, as you might expect if she'd been involved in an altercation, at least as described by Schwartz.

And then there are significant, if not major, inconsistencies between Schwartz's press statement and his police account.

Thus, in the Star version Stride is pushed into the passage by BS man, rather than pulled towards the street and thrown to the ground, as described in the police report. The Star says that Schwartz looked back on hearing the altercation-not mentioned in the police version. In the press account Pipeman shouts out a warning to the attacker, in the police version it is BS man that shouts "Lipski" at Schwartz; the Star suggests that the attacker was partially intoxicated, a fact not mentioned in the police report; And, most significantly, in the Star version Pipeman is transformed into a knife wielding accomplice of BS man, who rushes Schwartz with the knife, rather than a man lighting a pipe.

In fact, in the police report doubt is clearly expressed as to whether Pipeman is an accomplice or just an innocent bystander:"Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other." Abberline subsequently noted, "The man whom he saw lighting a pipe also ran in the same direction as himself, but whether this man was running after him or not he could not tell, he might have been alarmed the same as himself and ran away." However, the Star version leaves no room for such doubts:"A second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand..."

Of course, it's been suggested that there may have been translation issues, but if that's the case how can we have faith in anything Schwartz is supposed to have said? And, although I'm no expert in Hungarian, I'm not sure how you could mistranslate "man standing lighting his pipe", into man "rushed forward as if to attack the intruder", with knife in hand.

Could the Star have dramatized Schwartz's account? Well, as I see it, his account hasn't just been dramatized, but virtually 're-written. Moreover, there's no evidence that any other witness accounts were dramatized by the press to anything like this extent-even Hutchinson's press account is virtually identical to his police statement.

However, the Star did suggest that Schwartz might be in the "theatrical line". I wonder now if this might have been intended as a joke, a subtle hint to the reader that Schwartz gave very much the impression of someone acting a part.