Schwartz v. Lawende

[S.Brett]

Karsten

I really like this line of thinking, if only we had some hard evidence.
I have come round to thinking there must have been a witness at Millers Court, having until recently assumed the witness could only have been a Police Officer.


regards

Steve

Hi Steve!

It is difficult to prove... based more on theory and hypothesis than on facts...

But if the police assumed that the PC near Mitre Square has seen "Kosminski" in company with Eddowes (in/near Mitre Street) shortly before she was found murdered, and Matthew Packer insisted on seeing the couple "Kosminski"/ Stride, then I can well understand, if there was a (Seaside Home) witness in Miller´s Court, that Anderson and Swanson were convinced that they had found Jack the Ripper even though the Seaside Home witness refused to testify...

"Kosminski" at three various crime scenes (Berner Street/Mitre Street/Miller´s Court)... again, in this case I would really understand Anderson & Swanson´s belief...

On the thread "Packer and Schwartz", Pat Marshall, I quote:

The police on examination found that the murdered woman's husband was a much older man than the individual now detained and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister , they let the man go.
The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Any ideas who this chap was?

Pat........

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. FRIDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1888.

A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.

A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance.

A report last night = 11th October at latest
"an East end Infirmary"

Pat............

If you know Rob House "Jack the Ripper and Scotland Yard´s Prime Suspect" you will know that in connection with the Batty Street incident (bloody shirt) a man was under close surveillance, and perhaps this man was watched by the police while he was inmate of an East End Infirmary & while he was at home in October 1888.

Regarding East End Infirmary I wrote:

Post 877, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=360458

and post 969, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9169&page=97

Cox, City Police stated (while keeping this fellow under observation):

"Not far from where the model lodging house stands he met another woman, and for a considerable distance he walked along with her."

for a considerable distance he walked along with her...

In my opinion it is possible that for a considerable time "Kosminski" walked along with Stride and was seen by Packer, Marshall and PC Smith. I perceive the possibility that "Kosminski" was already inside the Dutfield´s Yard when BS Man and Schwartz arrived the "crime scene".

Patricia Marshall´s great grandfather was George Cox. And his brother was Henry Cox (known as Harry). I guess, the man he followed was "Kosminski".

Karsten.

[John G]

Hi Steve!

It is difficult to prove... based more on theory and hypothesis than on facts...

But if the police assumed that the PC near Mitre Square has seen "Kosminski" in company with Eddowes (in/near Mitre Street) shortly before she was found murdered, and Matthew Packer insisted on seeing the couple "Kosminski"/ Stride, then I can well understand, if there was a (Seaside Home) witness in Miller´s Court, that Anderson and Swanson were convinced that they had found Jack the Ripper even though the Seaside Home witness refused to testify...

"Kosminski" at three various crime scenes (Berner Street/Mitre Street/Miller´s Court)... again, in this case I would really understand Anderson & Swanson´s belief...

On the thread "Packer and Schwartz", Pat Marshall, I quote:





If you know Rob House "Jack the Ripper and Scotland Yard´s Prime Suspect" you will know that in connection with the Batty Street incident (bloody shirt) a man was under close surveillance, and perhaps this man was watched by the police while he was inmate of an East End Infirmary & while he was at home in October 1888.

Regarding East End Infirmary I wrote:

Post 877, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=360458

and post 969, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9169&page=97

Cox, City Police stated (while keeping this fellow under observation):

"Not far from where the model lodging house stands he met another woman, and for a considerable distance he walked along with her."

for a considerable distance he walked along with her...

In my opinion it is possible that for a considerable time "Kosminski" walked along with Stride and was seen by Packer, Marshall and PC Smith. I perceive the possibility that "Kosminski" was already inside the Dutfield´s Yard when BS Man and Schwartz arrived the "crime scene".

Patricia Marshall´s great grandfather was George Cox. And his brother was Henry Cox (known as Harry). I guess, the man he followed was "Kosminski".

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

I seem to remember that Wickerman once suggested that Stride could have been with her killer as Schwartz and BS Man approached, and simply took a step or two back into the darkness of the yard, i.e. so that he was out of sight.

One difficulty I have with this scenario is that wouldn't Stride be annoyed with him because of his lack of gallantry, i e. by failing to act whilst she was being assaulted? Moreover, isn't it possible, or even likely, that this would have resulted in an argument, which clearly nobody heard, as she chided him for his failure to intervene?

[Jeff Leahy]

In my opinion it is possible that for a considerable time "Kosminski" walked along with Stride and was seen by Packer, Marshall and PC Smith. I perceive the possibility that "Kosminski" was already inside the Dutfield´s Yard when BS Man and Schwartz arrived the "crime scene".

Patricia Marshall´s great grandfather was George Cox. And his brother was Henry Cox (known as Harry). I guess, the man he followed was "Kosminski".

Karsten.

In Paul Beggs 'The Facts' it relates the fact that there was a loft door locked from the inside, in Dutfield Yard... I always found this curious..

If Kozminski indeed lived next door to Dutfield yard as a child, its not inconceivable that he might know a secret way out through the back of the yard.....

If PC Smiths timing was indeed earlier than 12.35, I wonder if this is explained by Fanny hearing the measured stamp of a policeman pass her door?

Oh and re- the Jewish infirmary, is this the one connected to The asylum in Surrey?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi John,

I seem to remember that Wickerman once suggested that Stride could have been with her killer as Schwartz and BS Man approached, and simply took a step or two back into the darkness of the yard, i.e. so that he was out of sight.

Then I agree with Jon "Wickerman". Do you remember this (Packer and Schwartz)?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=357452

To the woman:

...a woman, who was standing in the gateway... he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway

He noticed a woman standing... ALONE...

ALONE? Really?

If BS Man or Pipeman were not Jack the Ripper did they see the woman standing ALONE?

I am thinking of another "image". This couple, seen by Packer, Marshall and PC Smith reached the Dutfields Yard again, and now, the man was ready to enter the yard with the woman and ready to kill Stride after PC Smith had seen them. But they noticed BS Man and when BS Man came closer the Ripper went into the darkness of the yard. After the quarrel was over it was the best time to kill Stride and the Ripper did it. But someone had disturbed him... Diemschütz?

It is quite possible that all the time, when BS Man, Schwartz and Piepman arrived at the scene, Jack the Ripper was "standing close" to Stride but no one saw him.

Not BS Man, not Pipeman and certainly not Schwartz. No one could identify Kosminski... So I think Schwartz was not the Seaside Home witness. He had never seen Kosminski...

One difficulty I have with this scenario is that wouldn't Stride be annoyed with him because of his lack of gallantry, i e. by failing to act whilst she was being assaulted? Moreover, isn't it possible, or even likely, that this would have resulted in an argument, which clearly nobody heard, as she chided him for his failure to intervene?

We do not whether BS Man did see a man next to her. Maybe he saw the same couple... which Packer, Marshall and PC Smith had observed...

But if BS Man was not found...

Perhaps, in such a scenario, BS Man yelled at the man next to her: "Lipski!" and not in the direction of Schwartz and Pipeman? Possibly, in such a case, both man had a "chat", who knows...

But it does sound far-fetched...

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

In Paul Beggs 'The Facts' it relates the fact that there was a loft door locked from the inside, in Dutfield Yard... I always found this curious..

If Kozminski indeed lived next door to Dutfield yard as a child, its not inconceivable that he might know a secret way out through the back of the yard.....

Hi Jeff,

Two doors from Fanny Mortimer´s home, between 32 & 30 Berner Street, was the entrance of Batty´s Gardens, a narrow street, an alley. 1887, in 23 Batty´s Gardens lived there a “Lobonoffski“. It reminds me of Lubnowski. In 1901 a Wo(o)lf Kosminski lived in 26 Batty´s Gardens and maybe the same Wolf Kosusorumie (Kosminski?) who lived 9 Batty´s Gardens in 1891. I do not know if it is possible, via Dutfield´s Yard and via the rear sides of the houses of Batty´s Gardens, to escape the crime sence.

If PC Smiths timing was indeed earlier than 12.35, I wonder if this is explained by Fanny hearing the measured stamp of a policeman pass her door?

A mystery... this woman... I think she did not see anything because she was not outdoor between 12.30- 01.00, but standing at her door after 12.45 (after the heavy stamp of BS Man passing her house???) until 12.55 shortly before Diemschitz arrived the crime scene. Very possible that she was not standing at her door (three doors from the club) when Stride was killed by the Ripper... it is possible when she heard the pony and cart of Diemschitz that she did miss the measures of the fleeing Ripper...

Oh and re- the Jewish infirmary, is this the one connected to The asylum in Surrey?

So far... I was too lazy...

Yours, Karsten.

[Jon Guy]

her house???) . it is possible when she heard the pony and cart of Diemschitz that she did miss the measures of the fleeing Ripper...

Did she say that she heard the pony and cart ?

[S.Brett]

Did she say that she heard the pony and cart ?

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/london_evening_news/881001.html

THE EVENING NEWS
MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888

THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a

Page 3

quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Sounds like Mrs. Fanny Mortimer.

In that Article:

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors...

[Jon Guy]

http://www.casebook.org/press_report...ws/881001.html

THE EVENING NEWS
MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888

THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a

Page 3

quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Sounds like Mrs. Fanny Mortimer.

In that Article:

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors...

Many thanks, Karsten.
That`s her

[Jon Guy]

Did she hear Diemschutz and his cart ?
and
In her hot kitchen with open window

Hi John

I was talking bollocks and you were correct
Karsten has provided a source for Mrs M hearing Diemschutz and his cart pass, and I also saw a ref for Mrs M saying Mrs D having her kitchen window open.

I made a few mistakes lately, I should learn not to pick up my crack pipe until after I have visited the message boards.

[John G]

http://www.casebook.org/press_report...ws/881001.html

THE EVENING NEWS
MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888

THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a

Page 3

quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Sounds like Mrs. Fanny Mortimer.

In that Article:

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors...

Yes, Paul Begg cites the same source in "The Facts". Gavin Bromley, in his dissertation, also suggests that PC Smith may have passed by at 12:45, instead of 12:35. If this is the case, then the man that he saw with Stride surely has to be the prime suspect.

Thus, one possible scenario is that the killer waits until PC Smith is out of sight before inveigling Stride into the yard. He then slits her throat, before being disturbed by Fanny Mortimer appearing at her doorway (if he was JtR this would explain the failure to mutilate.)

Obviously he hopes that she will quickly return inside, however, she remains for 10 minutes. The killer is therefore sufficiently perturbed to flea the scene as soon as Mortimer returns indoors.

This scenario would also explain why the body was not seen by Eagle or Lave, assuming their timings were correct.

[John G]

Hi John

I was talking bollocks and you were correct
Karsten has provided a source for Mrs M hearing Diemschutz and his cart pass, and I also saw a ref for Mrs M saying Mrs D having her kitchen window open.

I made a few mistakes lately, I should learn not to pick up my crack pipe until after I have visited the message boards.

Hi Jon,

No problem, I'm sure I've made the occasional blunder myself! In fact, if you look at post 244, I had to make a correction: Mortimer, whose account I was relying on, doesn't expressly state that the kitchen window was open, although I would argue that it's a reasonable inference: "It was almost incredible to me that the thing could be done without the steward's wife hearing the noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found."

However, I am unable to confirm at this stage whether any of my errors were alcohol induced!

[S.Brett]

Gavin Bromley, in his dissertation, also suggests that PC Smith may have passed by at 12:45, instead of 12:35. If this is the case, then the man that he saw with Stride surely has to be the prime suspect

Hi John,

Inquest: Elizabeth Stride:

William Smith, 452 H Division: On Saturday last I went on duty at ten p.m. My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

PC Smith stated: at one o'clock... I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40... then it seems to me correct when he said I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock because his beat would take him twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round...

What do you think?

Karsten.

[curious4]

Hi Jon,

No problem, I'm sure I've made the occasional blunder myself! In fact, if you look at post 244, I had to make a correction: Mortimer, whose account I was relying on, doesn't expressly state that the kitchen window was open, although I would argue that it's a reasonable inference: "It was almost incredible to me that the thing could be done without the steward's wife hearing the noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found."

However, I am unable to confirm at this stage whether any of my errors were alcohol induced!

According to the Sourcebook (Stride inquest) Mr D found his wife in the front room on the ground floor. Of course she could have been sitting in the kitchen earlier.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hi John,

Inquest: Elizabeth Stride:

William Smith, 452 H Division: On Saturday last I went on duty at ten p.m. My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

PC Smith stated: at one o'clock... I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40... then it seems to me correct when he said I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock because his beat would take him twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round...

What do you think?

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Gavin Bromley carried out a thorough analysis of Smith's beat and concluded that he most probably saw Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, not 12:30 and 12:35. Of course, Smith was only estimating the time, and 12:45 would tie in with Mortimer's account. Of course, if he did see Stride at 12:45, then Schwartz's account is undermined.

The dissertation can be found here: http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true

[John G]

According to the Sourcebook (Stride inquest) Mr D found his wife in the front room on the ground floor. Of course she could have been sitting in the kitchen earlier.

Best wishes
C4

Hi C4,

Yes, of course we are largely dependent on Fanny Mortimer's account:"It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen..." see Evening News, 1st October, 1888.

There is also a statement from Mrs D:"Just about 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club and close to the side entrance . I am positive that I did not hear any screams or sounds of any kind" See: Times, 2 October, 1888.

However, this contradicts her husband's statement, at the inquest, that she was in the front room at that time, so presumably she must have been in the kitchen earlier.