Schwartz v. Lawende

[c.d.]

I would be much more inclined to support the conspiracy theory if this had been an isolated murder instead of what appeared to be a series of murders in Whitechapel. I know the club was hated by the police but I just can't see the club being targeted simply because the murder occurred on their grounds especially in light of the previous murders. Just cooperate with the police and do everything that was asked of them.

And if this was a hastily thrown together story put together by just a handful of members they ran the risk of a member who was not privy to all of this saying something that contradicted the official story. And I agree with Joshua that being caught lying about the murder would have been a whole lot worse for them. And why the hell would poor Schwartz, a Jew and a newcomer to the country with a wife and young child, agree to be the point man in all of this? Talk about taking one for the team.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that once you put on the conspiracy glasses all you see is a conspiracy and it is hard to take them off.

c.d.

[Observer]

There are a ton of little inconsistencies and questionable claims when it comes to the club staff,

Only in your mind Michael. John and Joshua are the ones pointing out the error of your way this time, and you have not I repeat have not addressed their concerns regarding your **** eyed belief when it comes to the witnessses who were involved in the Liz Stride murder.

You've been took to task many times regarding your theories involving the Liz Stride witnesess, but you don't seem to learn. One thing, Mortimer was reported as saying she heard Deimshutz's cart pass down the street shortly after retiring indoors for the final time at 1:00 a.m. you continually refuse to address this point.

I know you have in the past provided some cockamamey story about Mortimer hearing Deimshutz leaving the area in his cart rather than arriving. Can you, for the sake of any current observers to this thread provide us with your view on this matter?

[John G]

Actually Ive suggested Lamb arrived before 1am John, and re-read what Lamb said.."Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder".

He says that shortly before 1am 2 men came up to him shouting about the murder. Again, Louis couldn't have arrived between 12:50 and 1:00 without being seen by Fanny.......and here I am debating this again. Must be a glutton for punishment.

Hello Michael,

And what did PC Lamb say about having a watch? I've noted this numerous times already, but in the interest of thoroughness, this is from the Stride inquest (the emphasis is mine) :

PC Lamb: "Dr Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive; he came ten or twelve minutes after myself, but I had no watch."

[Michael W Richards]

I
And if this was a hastily thrown together story put together by just a handful of members they ran the risk of a member who was not privy to all of this saying something that contradicted the official story.
c.d.

Isnt there evidence that could be used to support that theory cd? Around an hour after the murder was discovered Louis was saying that he and Issac[s], (who most believe was Issac K), went out for help in one direction and Eagle another after 1am, when Issac K says that he was sent out alone by Louis at around 12:45. Heschbergs time also doesn't jive with Louis. Might this be a result of some non-manangement members being left out of any decision process that occurred?

As for the last post, Im just too polite not to address questions and too stubborn to let taunts go by.

[Joshua Rogan]

Could PC Lamb have been estimating the time by the fact that PC Collins was still on fixed point duty and his shift was supposed to end at 1am? Of course, we don't know if Collins had a watch or a view of a clock, nor how punctilious he was about when he knocked off.

[Michael W Richards]

Only in your mind Michael. John and Joshua are the ones pointing out the error of your way this time, and you have not I repeat have not addressed their concerns regarding your **** eyed belief when it comes to the witnessses who were involved in the Liz Stride murder.

You've been took to task many times regarding your theories involving the Liz Stride witnesess, but you don't seem to learn. One thing, Mortimer was reported as saying she heard Deimshutz's cart pass down the street shortly after retiring indoors for the final time at 1:00 a.m. you continually refuse to address this point.

I know you have in the past provided some cockamamey story about Mortimer hearing Deimshutz leaving the area in his cart rather than arriving. Can you, for the sake of any current observers to this thread provide us with your view on this matter?

If I could address the last point first, According to Fanny she was at her door most of the time between 12:30 and 1am, and continuously from 12:50 until
1am, and Louis was not seen or heard by Fanny before going inside. A few minutes later, that would be a few minutes after 1am, perhaps 1:03 or 1:04? she hears a cart and horse pass her door. Either arriving or departing, there is uncertainty with that question. That means that Louis or Morris would not be going anywhere before 1:07-1:10ish. Use that as a time marker and then factor in all that transpires from that point until 1:16am, when an official arrives and marks the time by his own watch. Seems to me that if they leave for help around 1:10 then its impossible for Blackwell to have been woken, got dressed and down to the passageway by 1:16am.

What people seem to ignore is that although there is no guarantee of synchronization of timepieces, many of the personal timepieces would have been set by public clocks.

Louis says he arrives at 1 am "exactly", because he took the time from the clock as he headed to the club and then guesstimated the time it took from that point to the gates.

What Ive suggested is pragmatic and realistic, and it addresses what is on paper for the time between 12:35 and 1am, a story that is not uniform within the witnesses statements. Unlike someone who claims to have discovered who Jack the Ripper was, I tend to make suggestions about what may have been the real story in certain situations.

In this case, the club staff would have every reason to be nervous about their continuing operation based upon the fact that a dead murdered woman was found on their property, and as a result they may have taken a few minutes after the discovery to assess what would be their best strategy.

[Joshua Rogan]

Isnt there evidence that could be used to support that theory cd? Around an hour after the murder was discovered Louis was saying that he and Issac[s], (who most believe was Issac K), went out for help in one direction and Eagle another after 1am, when Issac K says that he was sent out alone by Louis at around 12:45. Heschbergs time also doesn't jive with Louis. Might this be a result of some non-manangement members being left out of any decision process that occurred?

As for the last post, Im just too polite not to address questions and too stubborn to let taunts go by.

Kozebrodsky doesn't say he was sent out alone by Louis, he merely says "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschutz or some other member of the club". It almost certainly was Diemschutz, but saying "I went" does not automatically mean he was alone. Spooner, for instance, only uses "l" after hearing of the murder...did he just abandon his young lady on the street?

Once again, Heshberg was alerted by police whistles. If he is right about the time then the police were at the club 15 minutes before Louis said he discovered the murder, and several doctors and police would have arrived whilst Fanny was on her doorstep. But apparently she missed them all.

[Michael W Richards]

Kozebrodsky doesn't say he was sent out alone by Louis, he merely says "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschutz or some other member of the club". It almost certainly was Diemschutz, but saying "I went" does not automatically mean he was alone. Spooner, for instance, only uses "l" after hearing of the murder...did he just abandon his young lady on the street?

Once again, Heshberg was alerted by police whistles. If he is right about the time then the police were at the club 15 minutes before Louis said he discovered the murder, and several doctors and police would have arrived whilst Fanny was on her doorstep. But apparently she missed them all.

I think you are just looking for things to hammer now Joshua, when Issac says "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom"....its clear that he isn't talking in plurality. Its obvious he intended to convey that he went out alone. On this point, can you recall anyone in authority mentioning this sanctioned trip for assistance? We are told of 2 search parties, not 3.

The time is the issue Im addressing with Heschberg, not the form with which he was alerted. When trying to determine whether the time Louis gave was truthful or accurate you also have to account for everything that is reported to have taken place after the discovery. If he arrived earlier but left for help when he said he did...I don't have a real problem with that. It makes perfect sense to me that there would be moments of confusion and hesitation before an action plan was executed, Issac K being sent out before the 2 search parties acknowledged left themselves makes some sense.

If he actually arrived after 1am...perhaps 3 or 4 minutes after, based on Fannys recollections of sounds, then its highly improbable that Blackwell would be informed early enough to allow him to arrive onsite by 1:16am. Which is a marker for time, he had a watch.

What you, and cd,and others seem to be resisting that a perfectly natural reaction to danger or threat is to halt activity, make an assessment of the situation and then construct and execute a plan that reduces those risks. The club was thought to be run in effect by criminal elements before this murder, and the investigation into the Ripper crimes in September revealed to Anderson, based on his comments and review of the door to door search reports, that they sought an poor immigrant Jew. Add a murdered woman to that mix, on Jewish immigrant property, and they had plenty to be concerned about. At least the staff that operated the club did, and those are the accounts Im questioning.

Under those circumstances Israel Schwartz's story of an offsite gentile is particularly advantageous towards a goal of deflection suspicion from the club, perhaps that's why the authorities chose not to have it entered into Inquest evidence.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I think everyone can pretty much see why the club members might have wanted to concoct a story but that doesn't mean that they did.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I think everyone can pretty much see why the club members might have wanted to concoct a story but that doesn't mean that they did.

c.d.

What Im trying to illustrate cd is that the motive for delay is there and it would appear by the accounts of some witnesses that there was time for that opportunity.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I understand that, Michael but what I and others are saying is that simply establishing a motive doesn't necessarily mean that they followed through on it.


c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I understand that, Michael but what I and others are saying is that simply establishing a motive doesn't necessarily mean that they followed through on it.


c.d.

What are the grounds for suspicion of any crime cd?...motive and opportunity. When both are present, and supported by some witness evidence, its inconceivable to me that it should not be taken seriously.

Lets put the cards face up here.......Liz wasn't killed by someone who mutilates, there is no evidence it was considered or attempted, and the physical demeanor of the dead woman suggests that the single cut was all that was intended. She looked "as if gently lain down".Her skirts almost covering her boots. Which means, it doesn't take a Urban Legend of a serial mutilator to resolve this. Some one with a sharp knife killed Liz. That also suggests that the act need not have been done with a sharp pointed instrument, it was a single slice across the throat that did not involve the tip at all, only the body of the blade. That means anyone with a knife sharp enough to cut without great force could have been the killer, and anyone with access to said sharp knife could be the culprit. The kitchen door was ajar, I assume it was full of various shaped knives. Or he might have had it on him as a regular habit...these were dangerous streets at that time.

Which means what...that the killer could have come from the club and that he need not be anything but a singular murderer.

The simple truth is that Liz Stride could have been killed by someone who thought she was snooping around.

[John G]

I think you are just looking for things to hammer now Joshua, when Issac says "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom"....its clear that he isn't talking in plurality. Its obvious he intended to convey that he went out alone. On this point, can you recall anyone in authority mentioning this sanctioned trip for assistance? We are told of 2 search parties, not 3.

The time is the issue Im addressing with Heschberg, not the form with which he was alerted. When trying to determine whether the time Louis gave was truthful or accurate you also have to account for everything that is reported to have taken place after the discovery. If he arrived earlier but left for help when he said he did...I don't have a real problem with that. It makes perfect sense to me that there would be moments of confusion and hesitation before an action plan was executed, Issac K being sent out before the 2 search parties acknowledged left themselves makes some sense.

If he actually arrived after 1am...perhaps 3 or 4 minutes after, based on Fannys recollections of sounds, then its highly improbable that Blackwell would be informed early enough to allow him to arrive onsite by 1:16am. Which is a marker for time, he had a watch.

What you, and cd,and others seem to be resisting that a perfectly natural reaction to danger or threat is to halt activity, make an assessment of the situation and then construct and execute a plan that reduces those risks. The club was thought to be run in effect by criminal elements before this murder, and the investigation into the Ripper crimes in September revealed to Anderson, based on his comments and review of the door to door search reports, that they sought an poor immigrant Jew. Add a murdered woman to that mix, on Jewish immigrant property, and they had plenty to be concerned about. At least the staff that operated the club did, and those are the accounts Im questioning.

Under those circumstances Israel Schwartz's story of an offsite gentile is particularly advantageous towards a goal of deflection suspicion from the club, perhaps that's why the authorities chose not to have it entered into Inquest evidence.

I'm a little confused as to why you would not deem the form by which Heschberg was alerted to the murder to be relevant. The fact that he heard police whistles means that we can confidently conclude that it was probably after 1:00am, and not 12:45, as he estimated. I would also note, once again, that there is zero evidence that Fanny referred to a timepiece at any time during the relevant period, let alone that it was an accurate timepiece.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think you are just looking for things to hammer now Joshua, when Issac says "I went"....its clear that he isn't talking in plurality. Its obvious he intended to convey that he went out alone.

Yes and no. The point I was trying to make is that most people, when recounting their actions, use "I", even if there were others with them. That's just my impression though. I haven't done any statistical analysis.

On this point, can you recall anyone in authority mentioning this sanctioned trip for assistance? We are told of 2 search parties, not 3.

Anyone in authority? Strange term for a socialist group. I think they'd undermine their own credibility if some members elevated themselves over others.
We are told of two trips, and we have evidence for two. One 'party' up Berner Street; Eagle and later, by his own statement, Koz.
The other along Fairclough St;
Spooner; 'two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."'
Note, TWO jews. Not one. If Koz set off down Fairclough Street on his own, Louis was hot on his heels.

The time is the issue Im addressing with Heschberg, not the form with which he was alerted.

But time is just a way of ordering events, it's the events themselves that are important. And the events Heshberg describes can only have happened after the police were summoned, whether there was a delay before this was done or not, so cannot be evidence for such a delay.

When trying to determine whether the time Louis gave was truthful or accurate you also have to account for everything that is reported to have taken place after the discovery. If he arrived earlier but left for help when he said he did...I don't have a real problem with that. It makes perfect sense to me that there would be moments of confusion and hesitation before an action plan was executed, Issac K being sent out before the 2 search parties acknowledged left themselves makes some sense.
If he actually arrived after 1am...perhaps 3 or 4 minutes after, based on Fannys recollections of sounds, then its highly improbable that Blackwell would be informed early enough to allow him to arrive onsite by 1:16am. Which is a marker for time, he had a watch.

So doesn't this point to Fanny's accuracy being at least questionable? If you recall the report in post 142 - it's not attributed to her, but matches Fanny's description except for putting her doorstep vigil 5 minutes earlier - this would tally with Louis D's timing and with Blackwell's.

What you, and cd,and others seem to be resisting that a perfectly natural reaction to danger or threat is to halt activity, make an assessment of the situation and then construct and execute a plan that reduces those risks. The club was thought to be run in effect by criminal elements before this murder, and the investigation into the Ripper crimes in September revealed to Anderson, based on his comments and review of the door to door search reports, that they sought an poor immigrant Jew. Add a murdered woman to that mix, on Jewish immigrant property, and they had plenty to be concerned about. At least the staff that operated the club did, and those are the accounts Im questioning.

I'm not sure that's a perfectly natural reaction for everybody. For those with something to hide, perhaps. But however they were perceived by the authorities, I'm not sure the club saw themselves as having anything to hide. If they wanted to go unnoticed, they probably wouldn't have published a newspaper.

Under those circumstances Israel Schwartz's story of an offsite gentile is particularly advantageous towards a goal of deflection suspicion from the club, perhaps that's why the authorities chose not to have it entered into Inquest evidence.

I'm not sure Israel's story indicates a gentile at all. If anything it implicates a Jew. Let's not forget that he reported BS man as shouting Lipski to his 'accomplice', Pipeman. It was Abberline who suggested it might have been aimed at Schwartz himself.

[Jeff Leahy]

If According to Fanny she was at her door most of the time between 12:30 and 1am, and continuously from 12:50 until
1am, and Louis was not seen or heard by Fanny before going inside.

Fanny was at her door 'on and off' in one report

In the other she was at her door 'No more than ten minutes'

So this claim is miss-leading

Gouldstein places her at the door shortly before 1 am... But gives no exact time

Fanny goes inside and hears the pony and cart pass her door and it only takes seconds for the horse and cart to pass down Berner street so its possible Deimschutz discovers the body at 1 am.

Fanny then hears the commotion which could be at any point after 1 am

Yours Jeff