Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

PC Lamb, Issac Kozebrodksi, Abraham Heschberg, a club member only identified as Giller or Giilen, and Edward Spooner, whose story puts him in the passageway with the aforementioned witnesses before 12:45am.

Edward Spooner told the coroner that, "the only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses." And PC Lamb admitted at the inquest that he didn't even posses a watch, although his time estimate of 1:00am was probably only a few minutes out.

And Goldstein's evidence doesn't gel with Mortimer's. Thus, he estimated that he was passing through Berner Street at around 1:00am. Some time after Mortimer saw him walk past she went indoors. She then said it was about 4 minutes later that she heard the approach of Louis' pony and cart. However, that would suggest that Louis arrived at about 1:05, which can't possibly be right, as that was roughly the time that PC Lamb reached Dutfield's Yard!

[Joshua Rogan]

PC Lamb, Issac Kozebrodksi, Abraham Heschberg, a club member only identified as Giller or Giilen, and Edward Spooner, whose story puts him in the passageway with the aforementioned witnesses before 12:45am.

Thanks Michael.
Spooner seems like the least reliable witness (at least where time is concerned). He says at the inquest "I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard." "There were about fifteen people in the yard." And "I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness [who was PC Lamb] arrived."

So according to him, the police were onsite at 12:40 or so, and a crowd was gathering.

Heshberg (or Hoshberg); "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."

So again, the police were at the club at 12:45. Whistles were blowing, people had run up and down yelling for police.

And yet Fanny Mortimer didn't see or hear a thing (except Goldstein) until after 1am;
"I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out" and "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out"
She also says "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm"

Now, both Spooner and PC Lamb said they did this, upon arrival. So she was at the yard within 5 minutes of Spooner. Except their timings are almost half an hour off. They can't both be right.



The question of what happened to the horse and cart is answered by Louis D in his inquest testimony;

[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

In a newspaper account (which I can't find for the life of me at present) I believe he says he was able to squeeze to the left of whatever was causing his horse to shy and the cart was beyond it before he got down to light a match.

So I don't think it left the yard. Therefore Fanny hear it arrive, not leave.

[Michael W Richards]

Edward Spooner told the coroner that, "the only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses." And PC Lamb admitted at the inquest that he didn't even posses a watch, although his time estimate of 1:00am was probably only a few minutes out.

And Goldstein's evidence doesn't gel with Mortimer's. Thus, he estimated that he was passing through Berner Street at around 1:00am. Some time after Mortimer saw him walk past she went indoors. She then said it was about 4 minutes later that she heard the approach of Louis' pony and cart. However, that would suggest that Louis arrived at about 1:05, which can't possibly be right, as that was roughly the time that PC Lamb reached Dutfield's Yard!

PC Lamb, from the Inquest: "Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock".

Spooner, from the Inquest:"I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

I believe that Goldstein's statement aligns fine with the times given by Fanny for the man with the black bag, 12:55-56am.

And as for the horse and cart, it was after 1am, and there is no evidence that states empirically that the noise Fanny heard was of the cart and horse arriving. I don't recall seeing any mention of them being there when any of the search party returned.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks Michael.
Spooner seems like the least reliable witness (at least where time is concerned). He says at the inquest "I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard." "There were about fifteen people in the yard." And "I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness [who was PC Lamb] arrived."

So according to him, the police were onsite at 12:40 or so, and a crowd was gathering.

Heshberg (or Hoshberg); "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."

So again, the police were at the club at 12:45. Whistles were blowing, people had run up and down yelling for police.

And yet Fanny Mortimer didn't see or hear a thing (except Goldstein) until after 1am;
"I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out" and "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out"
She also says "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm"

Now, both Spooner and PC Lamb said they did this, upon arrival. So she was at the yard within 5 minutes of Spooner. Except their timings are almost half an hour off. They can't both be right.


The question of what happened to the horse and cart is answered by Louis D in his inquest testimony;

[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

In a newspaper account (which I can't find for the life of me at present) I believe he says he was able to squeeze to the left of whatever was causing his horse to shy and the cart was beyond it before he got down to light a match.

So I don't think it left the yard. Therefore Fanny hear it arrive, not leave.

Do you recall any other witness mentioning the pony, and where was the cart if he only put the pony in the yard? For myself I don't like using witnesses that have their own self interests on the line and have zero corroboration for anything they say. Like Louis, Morris and Israel...the three "street-wise" men.

Fanny didn't say either Spooner or Lamb touched Strides face, she said someone. Considering both Lamb and Spooner were at the Inquest itwould be odd if she didn't identify the person she saw as one of them.

Lamb says he arrived about 10 minutes to 1, that may have been slightly earlier.

Remember, what Im saying is that there was very likely some discussion about what to do before anyone did anything, there is an unmentioned search party in the form of Issac K that is to be factored in, and there are the numerous accounts of people that claimed to be aware of the body before 1am.....10 minutes before, 1 minute before, 15 minutes before...hell, I don't care about being nitpicky on an exact moment, but its clear that there are people claiming to be near the body before Louis says he arrived.

Now...we have an Inquest that opens with a witness who offered no information about the crime, Wess...contrary to the convention that first witness should be the last person to see or be seen with the deceased or someone involved with the deceased, there is almost a day given to witness that the police knew was incorrect...Mary Malcolm, and there is no formal record of Israel Schwartz even though today many people still believe he is the most trustworthy witness, and we have no direct statement from Fanny, easily the most sensational witness with her "black bag" man, and the only one validated by other witness accounts, ...there is nothing about the times, the witnesses or the Inquest that is straightforward and easy to validate.

[John G]

Do you recall any other witness mentioning the pony, and where was the cart if he only put the pony in the yard? For myself I don't like using witnesses that have their own self interests on the line and have zero corroboration for anything they say. Like Louis, Morris and Israel...the three "street-wise" men.

Fanny didn't say either Spooner or Lamb touched Strides face, she said someone. Considering both Lamb and Spooner were at the Inquest itwould be odd if she didn't identify the person she saw as one of them.

Lamb says he arrived about 10 minutes to 1, that may have been slightly earlier.

Remember, what Im saying is that there was very likely some discussion about what to do before anyone did anything, there is an unmentioned search party in the form of Issac K that is to be factored in, and there are the numerous accounts of people that claimed to be aware of the body before 1am.....10 minutes before, 1 minute before, 15 minutes before...hell, I don't care about being nitpicky on an exact moment, but its clear that there are people claiming to be near the body before Louis says he arrived.

Now...we have an Inquest that opens with a witness who offered no information about the crime, Wess...contrary to the convention that first witness should be the last person to see or be seen with the deceased or someone involved with the deceased, there is almost a day given to witness that the police knew was incorrect...Mary Malcolm, and there is no formal record of Israel Schwartz even though today many people still believe he is the most trustworthy witness, and we have no direct statement from Fanny, easily the most sensational witness with her "black bag" man, and the only one validated by other witness accounts, ...there is nothing about the times, the witnesses or the Inquest that is straightforward and easy to validate.

PC Lamb didn't say that he arrived at "about 10 to 1"! As I've repeatedly pointed out, he said that he arrived 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so around 1:04-1:06.

[Michael W Richards]

PC Lamb didn't say that he arrived at "about 10 to 1"! As I've repeatedly pointed out, he said that he arrived 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so around 1:04-1:06.

So, you contend that PC Lamb could have arrived around 1:04 despite the fact that Louis himself didnt actually arrive until after 1, more like 1:02 or :03? Fanny heard a cart and horse a few minutes after 1 when she went inside, whether that was going or arriving...lets leave that for the moment. So Louis arrives at around 1:02 :03, again a questionable based on other statements...but whatever, he discovers the woman, checks on her status, goes indoors to summon help, arranges for 3 search parties to go out for help, goes out himself with Issacs as far as Grove Street, and somehow Lamb arrives at 1:04? Balderdash.

I am so tired of arguments that use only one or two questionable accounts and times to discount what is obvious to anyone who can see.....the combined witnesses times do not support Louis arriving between 12:50 and 1am, instead the bulk of them suggest a time much earlier. Even Eagle couldn't swear that the body was not there at 12:40...despite the fact he would have had to step over it since he kept to the wall as he entered.

Some people are, again, obviously not telling the truth here, and that means that it falls upon the investigator to determine if any witnesses might have cause to fudge times and actions. PC Smith didn't. Fanny didn't. PC Lamb didn't. Blackwell didn't. Spooner didn't. Since that leaves us with Brown and the people employed at a club where the police thought that anarchists operated... before the murder...there is cause to wonder if they took some time to discuss protecting their club and jobs before seeking the police.

So...faced with times that do not line up and the possibility someone fudged their recollections, the logical reaction would be to scrutinize the stories of the club members very closely, since they, and no others, stood to lose something.

[c.d.]

I believe a prudent way to discern who should be given leeway when it comes to time accuracy is to factor in their exposure to a timepiece at that point in time. We KNOW Blackwell had a watch, we know that PC Smith and PC Lamb would be cognizant of the time due to their patrol schedules, we know that Heschberg and Gillen and Kozebrodski came out from inside the club where there certainly would have been a clock visible. We know that Fanny was in and out on her doorstep sporadically, and she gave specific times for when she was at her door continuously, which suggests that she made use of a timepiece when she was inside.

Now.....Eagle, Lave, Diemshitz and Schwartz guessed based on time sources that were minutes behind them.

Hello Michael,

Not saying it couldn't happen but it seems odd that Fanny would have been so concerned about what times she was and was not at her door that she would have checked the time and made a mental note of it.

There is also her sick husband and five kids which might have drawn her attention away from her doorway for a few minutes.

To me, taking her times with a grain of salt seems quite reasonable.

c.d.

[Rosella]

According to Chris Scott's research over at JTRF Fanny Mortimer was born Fanny Skipp, the daughter of an agricultural labourer in Essex. Therefore Charles Letchford, who appears to have been in his twenties and therefore considerably younger than Fanny Mortimer, can't have been Fanny's brother. His sister standing at the door for ten minutes must have been yet another character lost to history in this drama. (He did have an older sister Florence who was 28.) The Letchfords lived three doors down from Fanny, I believe.

Fanny Mortimer may have had only a couple of clocks in the home, one say in the kitchen, one in the bedroom. She wouldn't have been rushing in consulting them every few seconds and could well have been checking on her husband and kids periodically.

Times were very imprecise to people without personal timepieces. Perhaps if Louis D. had known he was going to discover a body that night he would have borrowed a watch so he could be on the dot with his timings. So would PC Lamb.

Even in the 1950's when I was a child, you'd sometimes be confronted by a note on the local shop door informing potential customers that the proprietor would be gone 'for ten minutes' to perform an errand. That didn't mean ten minutes precisely, but anything from five to twenty minutes.

[John G]

So, you contend that PC Lamb could have arrived around 1:04 despite the fact that Louis himself didnt actually arrive until after 1, more like 1:02 or :03? Fanny heard a cart and horse a few minutes after 1 when she went inside, whether that was going or arriving...lets leave that for the moment. So Louis arrives at around 1:02 :03, again a questionable based on other statements...but whatever, he discovers the woman, checks on her status, goes indoors to summon help, arranges for 3 search parties to go out for help, goes out himself with Issacs as far as Grove Street, and somehow Lamb arrives at 1:04? Balderdash.

I am so tired of arguments that use only one or two questionable accounts and times to discount what is obvious to anyone who can see.....the combined witnesses times do not support Louis arriving between 12:50 and 1am, instead the bulk of them suggest a time much earlier. Even Eagle couldn't swear that the body was not there at 12:40...despite the fact he would have had to step over it since he kept to the wall as he entered.

Some people are, again, obviously not telling the truth here, and that means that it falls upon the investigator to determine if any witnesses might have cause to fudge times and actions. PC Smith didn't. Fanny didn't. PC Lamb didn't. Blackwell didn't. Spooner didn't. Since that leaves us with Brown and the people employed at a club where the police thought that anarchists operated... before the murder...there is cause to wonder if they took some time to discuss protecting their club and jobs before seeking the police.

So...faced with times that do not line up and the possibility someone fudged their recollections, the logical reaction would be to scrutinize the stories of the club members very closely, since they, and no others, stood to lose something.

How do you know that Louis arrived at 1:00am? His timings were based upon the clock that he referred to, which may not have been accurate. In any event, PC Lamb's timing is based upon Dr Blackwell's watch, i.e. he stated he arrived 10-12 minutes prior to the doctor, so around 1:05, not the clock. And, as I've pointed out several times, Dr Blackwell's watch may not have been synchronized with the clock.

Thus, if say the clock was running 2 minutes faster, then it would be showing a time of 1:18 when Dr Blackwell arrived, and around 1:07 when PC Lamb arrived 10-12 minutes earlier.

[Jeff Leahy]

But, as I've noted before, Mortimer is not a reliable witness. She was not called to give evidence at the inquest, was only estimating timings, and there are conflicting newspaper accounts of what she said. It is therefore perfectly plausible that Louis discovered the body at around 1:00am.

Hi John

I don't see why Fanny's statements are in contradiction.

She uses a general term 'No more than ten minutes' So she could have been at her door for only five minutes?

Goldstein says 'I passed through the street shortly before 1 am'

So if this happens at 12.57.... Fanny go inside at 12.58 am and heres the cart pass her door

Them Deinschutz has plenty of time to discover the body at 1 am as he claims

Yours Jeff

PS Hi all... With regards to standing at your door. This has been discussed at length in the passed. It was not an uncommon pass time in 1888, sort of their answer to Facebook. People stood at their doors and spoke to people who passed their door. And I gather there are several reports of people doing so in the area that night. So it is possible more than one person was stood at her door. Fanny however was cooperated by Goulstein and was only feet from Strides body which is why she is important.

[John G]

Hi John

I don't see why Fanny's statements are in contradiction.

She uses a general term 'No more than ten minutes' So she could have been at her door for only five minutes?

Goldstein says 'I passed through the street shortly before 1 am'

So if this happens at 12.57.... Fanny go inside at 12.58 am and heres the cart pass her door

Them Deinschutz has plenty of time to discover the body at 1 am as he claims

Yours Jeff

PS Hi all... With regards to standing at your door. This has been discussed at length in the passed. It was not an uncommon pass time in 1888, sort of their answer to Facebook. People stood at their doors and spoke to people who passed their door. And I gather there are several reports of people doing so in the area that night. So it is possible more than one person was stood at her door. Fanny however was cooperated by Goulstein and was only feet from Strides body which is why she is important.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree, Mortimer's evidence does lend support to Louis' estimated arrival time of 1:00am: she goes inside shortly after seeing Goldstein, who was passing shortly before 1:00am, then about 4 minutes later she hears the pony and cart pass by.

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Chris Scott's research over at JTRF Fanny Mortimer was born Fanny Skipp, the daughter of an agricultural labourer in Essex. Therefore Charles Letchford, who appears to have been in his twenties and therefore considerably younger than Fanny Mortimer, can't have been Fanny's brother. His sister standing at the door for ten minutes must have been yet another character lost to history in this drama. (He did have an older sister Florence who was 28.) The Letchfords lived three doors down from Fanny, I believe.

Thanks Rosella! I knew someone would have the answer.
I thought it unlikely they were one and the same person. But I find it oddly pleasing to imagine that Fanny and Florrie might have had a bit of a natter before bolting their doors.

I notice that Casebook mentions that some sources say Charles Letchford lived at no. 39, rather than 30, but these sources must be in error - looking at the map it appears that all the odd numbered houses from 25 to 41 were replaced by the new Board School.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Not saying it couldn't happen but it seems odd that Fanny would have been so concerned about what times she was and was not at her door that she would have checked the time and made a mental note of it.

There is also her sick husband and five kids which might have drawn her attention away from her doorway for a few minutes.

To me, taking her times with a grain of salt seems quite reasonable.

c.d.

Fanny stated that she was at her door from 12:50 until 1:00...but you think that isnt correct I assume. Thats fine cd...but the fact remains she said she was there at that time, and her sighting of Goldstein endorses her statement. I dont know why the convention is to dismiss witness statements that dont sit well with the reader personally.

[Michael W Richards]

According to Chris Scott's research over at JTRF Fanny Mortimer was born Fanny Skipp, the daughter of an agricultural labourer in Essex. Therefore Charles Letchford, who appears to have been in his twenties and therefore considerably younger than Fanny Mortimer, can't have been Fanny's brother. His sister standing at the door for ten minutes must have been yet another character lost to history in this drama. (He did have an older sister Florence who was 28.) The Letchfords lived three doors down from Fanny, I believe.

Fanny Mortimer may have had only a couple of clocks in the home, one say in the kitchen, one in the bedroom. She wouldn't have been rushing in consulting them every few seconds and could well have been checking on her husband and kids periodically.

Times were very imprecise to people without personal timepieces. Perhaps if Louis D. had known he was going to discover a body that night he would have borrowed a watch so he could be on the dot with his timings. So would PC Lamb.

Even in the 1950's when I was a child, you'd sometimes be confronted by a note on the local shop door informing potential customers that the proprietor would be gone 'for ten minutes' to perform an errand. That didn't mean ten minutes precisely, but anything from five to twenty minutes.

The background info aside, there is not one reason within any known evidence to challenge her contention that she was at her door when she said she was, and again...and again and again, her sighting of Goldstein validates her claim.

[Michael W Richards]

How do you know that Louis arrived at 1:00am? His timings were based upon the clock that he referred to, which may not have been accurate. In any event, PC Lamb's timing is based upon Dr Blackwell's watch, i.e. he stated he arrived 10-12 minutes prior to the doctor, so around 1:05, not the clock. And, as I've pointed out several times, Dr Blackwell's watch may not have been synchronized with the clock.

Thus, if say the clock was running 2 minutes faster, then it would be showing a time of 1:18 when Dr Blackwell arrived, and around 1:07 when PC Lamb arrived 10-12 minutes earlier.

LOUIS said he arrived exactly at 1am, not me.....why do I have to keep repeating this? I doubt anyones watches were synced to any public clocks except perhaps the police. The tendency to make excuses for what are obviously incompatible stories based around timings is confusing....if you want to challenge any of the facts as they appear in the records, then present evidence. Blackwell checked his watch at the time of arrival and he says it was 1:16...unless you have some evidence that he was incorrect, then I suggest you accept the time. Dont move the goal line to suit your own tastes.

Morris arrived at 12:40...why didnt he see Liz or Lave, who was at the gates at that same time? Im sure that Ill see someone make an excuse for that based on times.

Louis arrived at 1am...BY HIS OWN ACCOUNT...ok, why didnt Fanny see or hear anything on the street until 1am? Evidence please, not conjecture she couldnt tell time or her clock was broken...unless of course you can prove either of those excuses.

Israel see and hears an altercation at 12:45...since no-else sees Israel, or Pipeman, or BSM or hears any kind of altercation, and considering that he and his story are left out of the Inquest entirely, why is this accepted as a factual marker in time?

Spooner couldnt have arrived by 12:45...why?...because a single witness who no-one saw arrive says he didnt discover the body until after 1? How is that any kind of proof...its unsubstantiated by Fanny anyway. At least 3 club witness concur.

Its not just you...its many people who make their argument by surmising that people were either mistaken, or erred, or that their sick kids made it hard to tell time,.or that trees falling in unoccupied forests make no sound...its unbelievable how many arguments to posts are made based entirely on the belief system of the author, not on the evidence as it exists. All the evidence..as it reads, not how it can be manipulated based on personal preferences

-Yeah, Louis said he arrived at 1..exactly...incorrect, based on Fanny.
-Israel saw Liz....unsubstantiated and not considered as meaningful evidence in the Inquest.
-Liz is discovered by 12:45....substantiated by at least 4 witnesses.

Making excuses for evidence that doesnt agree with your own personal sensibilities is fine, this isnt a courtroom, but if it was, the excuses would need to be proven. These argumements that so and so was probably off by a few minutes, and so and so didnt have a watch......heres the bottom line...if they gave a specific time in their statement then you have to provide evidence to disprove it, not an opinion.

Anyone have evidence that Louis did arrive at exactly at 1am?
Anyone have evidence that the body was not found before 12:45?
Anyone have evidence Fanny was not at her door at any time between 12:50 and 1am?
Anyone have evidence that what Israel claimed he saw actually occurred? (opinionated notations in memos by investigators are not evidence)
Anyone have evidence that Eagle didnt step over Liz?
Anyone have evidence that Liz Strides cut estimate by Blackwell of 12:46-12:56 cannot be true?
Anyone have evidence that all the clocks and watches in this story were not within a minute or so of each other?
Anyone have evidence Liz Strides killer was interrupted?
Anyone have evidence that the members of the club did not take time to discuss what was to be done when they found the body?
Anyone have proof or evidence that Liz Stride was on the street after 12:35?
Anyone have evidence that the club was not perceived as housing undesirables by the neighbor and police before this event?
Anyone have evidence that Louis and Issac K dont attack the police a few months later in that yard without provocation?

Enough of what you believe, time for what you can prove. And I can say that without a doubt Ive used only the data sources...not my intuitive knowledge which tells me that Liz Stride was probably murdered by someone affiliated with the club between 12:40 and 12:45 in the passageway and that Israel Scwartz told a story Sunday night simply intended to misdirect the investigation and alleviate potential pressure on the club.