Schwartz v. Lawende

[Joshua Rogan]

Exactly John. This could only be evidence of a conspiracy if these witnesses had independently discovered the murder before the club members had gone for help. But as Spooner was alerted by Louis and Heshberg by the police, all they can be evidence of is that estimating time is not easy.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, Ill discontinue pointing out the obvious since you folks seem content to manipulate witness testimony and timings to suit whatever beliefs you have about this murder. Its not like there is anything in this for me to warrant arguing about or continuing to point out what is already in the records.

For posterity.... ...there are 4 witnesses whose times provided match each other with enough precision to warrant strong consideration when attempting to untangle the mess that the all the timings presents. There are club staff statements that have zero corroboration in any other witness accounts, and in fact are contradicted by the 4 aforementioned witnesses, and a supposed bystander, but actually a friend of Woolf Wess's that provides an account that seems intended to cast suspicion outside the gates and off the property.

Fortunately the last witness mentioned did not have his story validated in any tangible form other than some voiced support by investigators in later memos. One of those supporting investigators also supported another questionable witness later on in another murder, a witness that was later discredited.

I think Ill save myself some typing and allow you folks to carry on discussing what you believe are the relevant issues and accurate times, the effort to continue on isn't worth the eventual reward, which in my estimation is a broader and greater understanding of the case itself.

I could care less about gaining agreement, its always about a greater understanding.

Cheers

[Joshua Rogan]

For posterity.... ...there are 4 witnesses whose times provided match each other with enough precision to warrant strong consideration when attempting to untangle the mess that the all the timings presents.

But they don't, do they?

Spooner: alerted to the murder by two Jews shouting for the police, ETA at Club 12:35
Kosebrodsky: learned of murder about 12:40, then ran off shouting for the police.
Lamb: Told of murder a few minutes before one o'clock
Heshberg: Police whistles heard about 12:45

Is that really precise enough for you?

There are club staff statements that have zero corroboration in any other witness accounts, and in fact are contradicted by the 4 aforementioned witnesses

Can you provide any corroboration for your four witnesses? Because they seem to me to contradict each other.

and a supposed bystander, but actually a friend of Woolf Wess's that provides an account that seems intended to cast suspicion outside the gates and off the property.

Schwartz I presume. I'd be interested if you could provide any evidence for his friendship with Wess or connection to the club.
It's entirely possible that the club members were indeed shady characters, and I don't doubt they painted the club in the best light they could, but I just can't see any evidence of a conspiracy in the mismatched timings or actions of the members. It may be, though, that the mere suspicion of one has led you to a greater understanding.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oh, and do you know whether Abraham Heshberg was actually a member of the club? He may well have been, but the way his statement to the press reads makes me think he was at home at 28 Berner Street. If so, he may have been one of the members who left after the debate concluded (surely all the members still in the club would have heard about the murder before the police arrived). If not, it explains why he didn't know Diemscutz by name.

[Michael W Richards]

Had to respond...

But they don't, do they?

Spooner: alerted to the murder by two Jews shouting for the police, ETA at Club 12:35 That's your estimate, not his. Based on the story its perfectly plausible he was outside the Beehive before 12:30.

Kosebrodsky: learned of murder about 12:40, then ran off shouting for the police. Correct
Lamb: Told of murder a few minutes before one o'clock Rough time, Ill admit.
Heshberg: Police whistles heard about 12:45 correct

Is that really precise enough for you? That's 3 witnesses with no more than 5 minutes discrepancy between them, and 1 who could have been off a few minutes....like you and the others seem to allow for the witnesses without ANY corroborative accounts.

Can you provide any corroboration for your four witnesses? Because they seem to me to contradict each other. Nonsense, they all suggest a time of discovery of between 12:40 and 12:45, that's corroboration, and a full 15 20 minutes before Louis said he even arrived.

Schwartz I presume. I'd be interested if you could provide any evidence for his friendship with Wess or connection to the club. It was posted here a few years ago by Debra, apparently the connection comes from Paris a few years earlier.

It's entirely possible that the club members were indeed shady characters, and I don't doubt they painted the club in the best light they could, but I just can't see any evidence of a conspiracy in the mismatched timings or actions of the members. It may be, though, that the mere suspicion of one has led you to a greater understanding.

Heres a simple life lesson, if a person dies on the property of a biker club today in 2106, you can be sure that the drugs and guns would be hidden before they go for the police...whether they had anything to do with that death or not. Because the police would already have a preconceived idea that they traffic in illegal goods. The bikers would be seen as criminals from the get-go.

Something like the club on Berner Street being considered by the police as a place where "low men" gather and where anarchists plan things like strikes and job action intended to disrupt and disadvantage the local economy.

[Michael W Richards]

Oh, and do you know whether Abraham Heshberg was actually a member of the club? He may well have been, but the way his statement to the press reads makes me think he was at home at 28 Berner Street. If so, he may have been one of the members who left after the debate concluded (surely all the members still in the club would have heard about the murder before the police arrived). If not, it explains why he didn't know Diemscutz by name.

Interesting that he didn't know Louis isn't it? He came from upstairs to see what was happening, the club members left over after the meeting were upstairs.

Have any of you read the translated versions, courtesy of Lynn Cates, of the 1st Arbeter Fraint published after the Stride murder? Might be worth looking at for some of you..its in the Stride threads. Help yourself.

[John G]

Had to respond...

But as I've pointed out, Michael, Heshberg couldn't possibly have heard the police whistles at 12:45; as you yourself have accepted, PC Lamb wasn't notified of the murder until at least 1:00am-I have suggested it was most likely a few minutes after this time-and no other officers could have been aware of the incident 15 minutes earlier. Ergo, it must have been after 1:00 am when Heshberg heard the whistles and became aware of Stride's murder.

[Michael W Richards]

That's my last post on this thread so please....talk amongst yourselves from this point on ....perhaps a topic?...on what basis do you take a single account over 4 corroborative ones? Reliability? Credibility? Whether the witness benefits from a statement or not? For the life of me I cant figure out how many people conclude they know a certain topic when they discard more than half the known information.

I am thankful that the criminal responsible for this is long dead, because the investigative technique as Ive seen here wouldn't be able to solve any crimes let alone a murder. Assuming this time was wrong, assuming that time was wrong,... assuming a single intimately involved witness is more reliable than 4 casual witnesses...

Too much rhetoric for any meaningful exchanges.

[Michael W Richards]

But as I've pointed out, Michael, Heshberg couldn't possibly have heard the police whistles at 12:45; as you yourself have accepted, PC Lamb wasn't notified of the murder until at least 1:00am-I have suggested it was most likely a few minutes after this time-and no other officers could have been aware of the incident 15 minutes earlier. Ergo, it must have been after 1:00 am when Heshberg heard the whistles and became aware of Stride's murder.

Or Lamb was alerted before 1am, in which case everything Ive posted works with the accounts from reliable, trustworthy witnesses.

[Joshua Rogan]

Cheers Michael, I will have a search for that translation. Any idea how long ago it was posted?
Yes, it is interesting if Heshberg was a member but didn't know Diemschutz by name. Not unbelieveable - there were 75-80 members I think, they can't all have known each others' names, and Louis didn't attend this meeting so may have missed others too - but interesting.
Then again, Fanny didn't appear to know his name either and she only lived two doors away.

[John G]

Or Lamb was alerted before 1am, in which case everything Ive posted works with the accounts from reliable, trustworthy witnesses.

But you've passionately argued before that he was notified at exactly one o'clock! Moreover, he stated that he arrived at the scene of the crime 10-12 minutes prior to Dr Blackwell's arrival at 1:16 which, as I've noted several times, suggests he was alerted a few minutes after 1:00am.

[Joshua Rogan]

Had to respond...

Heres a simple life lesson, if a person dies on the property of a biker club today in 2106, you can be sure that the drugs and guns would be hidden before they go for the police...whether they had anything to do with that death or not. Because the police would already have a preconceived idea that they traffic in illegal goods. The bikers would be seen as criminals from the get-go.

Something like the club on Berner Street being considered by the police as a place where "low men" gather and where anarchists plan things like strikes and job action intended to disrupt and disadvantage the local economy.

If there's anything more likely than a murder on the premises to bring suspicion on a dubious organization, it's being caught lying about the murder!

[Michael W Richards]

But you've passionately argued before that he was notified at exactly one o'clock! Moreover, he stated that he arrived at the scene of the crime 10-12 minutes prior to Dr Blackwell's arrival at 1:16 which, as I've noted several times, suggests he was alerted a few minutes after 1:00am.

Actually Ive suggested Lamb arrived before 1am John, and re-read what Lamb said.."Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder".

He says that shortly before 1am 2 men came up to him shouting about the murder. Again, Louis couldn't have arrived between 12:50 and 1:00 without being seen by Fanny.......and here I am debating this again. Must be a glutton for punishment.

[Michael W Richards]

If there's anything more likely than a murder on the premises to bring suspicion on a dubious organization, it's being caught lying about the murder!

If there is anything more logical than suggesting that people who are already perceived as criminals would ensure that they appear innocent of a murder on their property, I am unaware of it.

As for lying vs omission....did Louis lie about how many people were sent out for help, was he intending to suggest Issac K went with him,...(which is contradictory to what Issac K said an hour after the murders discovery)...did Louis lie about arriving at exactly 1am when we can see plainly that Fanny did not see or hear anything from 12:50 until 1am while at her door, or was he mistaken.... did Louis omit telling the officers who this Issac[s] was that accompanied him, or did he just forget....did Eagle mean to suggest that he couldn't tell whether he stepped over a dying woman when he entered through the gates, or did he lie about staying close to the club wall when he entered? Could he have avoided a body if it was there? Is his claim he couldn't be sure the body was there at 12:40 disingenuous? What did the club members hide behind the curtains on the main floor when they learned of the body? Does someone who claims to be sick at the sight of blood run "pell-mell" down the stairs to see a river of blood coming from a woman he doesn't know? How come Lave who is at the gates from 12:30 until 12:40 doesn't see PC Smith, Liz and the gent with the package, or Eagle arriving? Why do 4 people...Spooner, Kozebrodski, Heschberg and Gillen[er] say that it was sometime between 12:30 and 12:45 when they went to see the body? Why did Louis check on his wife...did he think the killer went inside after that?

There are a ton of little inconsistencies and questionable claims when it comes to the club staff, and as I said, the discovery itself would have put the employed staff of the club in "protect the club" mode. Human nature is undeniable when it comes to self protection. The staff needed to protect their paycheques.

A last parting shot....I hope.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You certainly got a lot of mileage out of that "last post" of yours I must say.

c.d.